Three Meetings with an LDS General Authority, 2012/2013 ~ by Grant H. Palmer

The following very interesting memorandum was received on 5th April 2013 from Grant H. Palmer, and  is shared here with his permission.

grant palmer

Grant is a renowned LDS historian, and is author of “An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins”, which is referred to in the following memorandum. Further details of that book may be found here:

http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/an-insiders-view-of-mormon-origins-2/

Three Meetings with a LDS General Authority, 2012- 2013

Grant H. Palmer

 

In mid-October 2012, a returned LDS Mission President contacted me to arrange a meeting. Several days later, he called again and said that a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy also wished to attend. He said the General Authority would attend on condition that I not name him or repeat any stories that would identify him. He explained that neither of them, including the GA’s wife, believed the founding claims of the restoration were true. He clarified that they had read my book, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, and had concluded that the LDS Church was not true; was not what it claimed to be. The GA often went to the MormonThink.com website for information and there discovered my book. The Mission President said he received my book from the GA.         

 

We have at this writing met three times. We first met on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 and again February 14, 2013 at my house. On March 26, 2013 we convened at the GAs house. Upon entering my home for the first meeting the GA said, “We are here to learn.” I recognized him. He has been a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy for a number of years. He has served in several high profile assignments during this period. The following are the more important statements made by the GA during our first three meetings. We now meet monthly.

 

He said that each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars to take care of any financial obligations they have. This money gift allows them to fully focus on the ministry. He said that the overriding consideration of who is chosen is whether they are “church broke,” meaning, will they do whatever they are told. He said the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking. The junior six are told to observe, listen and learn and really only comment if they are asked. He said that it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true. He said it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider. He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.

 

When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. During his one on one assignments with an apostle, conversations were more familiar. He said that none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “my interactions with them.” Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church. He said that the apostle’s lives are so completely and entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church, that many of them would probably die defending the church rather than admit the truth about Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church.

The GA stated that my disciplinary action (which would have occurred on the final Sunday of October 2010 had I not resigned), was mandated/ordered/approved by the First Presidency of the Church. I said that if the apostles know the church is not true and yet order a disciplinary hearing for my writing a book that is almost certainly true regarding the foundational claims of the church, then they are corrupt even evil. He replied, “That’s right!”

 

            The GA said the church is like a weakened dam. At first you don’t see cracks on the face; nevertheless, things are happening behind the scenes. Eventually, small cracks appear, and then the dam will “explode.” When it does, he said, the members are going to be “shocked” and will need scholars/historians like me to educate them regarding the Mormon past.

 

The Mission President and the GA both said they attend church every Sunday and feel like “a hypocrite and trapped.” The GA said his ward treats him like a king and when he gives firesides and speaks to LDS congregations they have high expectations of him. He would like to do more in getting the truth out besides raising a few questions when speaking and gifting my book to others when feeling comfortable. Perhaps this is why he has reached out to me. The GA is a man of integrity and very loving. Upon leaving each time, he always gives me a big hug.

 

 

Do the Following Statements Support the Disclosures of the GA?

 

Apostle Boyd K. Packer said to Michael Quinn when interviewing him for a history position at BYU in 1976, “I have a hard time with historians because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting, it destroys,” quoted in, Faithful History: Essays on Writing Mormon History, editor, George D. Smith, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1992), 76n22.

Gregory Prince, who wrote a seminal biography of President David O. McKay, related to me that when he interviewed Hugh Nibley, a professor at BYU in 1995, that “At one point in the interview he [Nibley] asked that I turn off the tape recorder, which I did. He then related a curious anecdote relating to McKay and the Book of Mormon,” indicating that McKay did not believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon (emails exchanged between me and Greg Prince on June 22, 2005. These documents are located in The Grant H. Palmer Papers, Accn 2071, Manuscripts Division, Marriott Library, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah).

Thomas Stuart Ferguson, a California lawyer, church member and avid amateur archeologist, took the Egyptian papyri that was gifted to the church in 1967 to several Egyptologists at Berkeley, and as I recall Brown University and had them independently translated. All said the papyri were common funerary rites from the Book of the Dead. Ferguson then took their statements to apostle Hugh B. Brown, and after reviewing the evidence “with Brother Brown he said that Brother Brown agreed with him that it was not scripture …. that Hugh B. Brown did not believe the Book of Abraham was what the church said it was” (Journal entry of Ronald O. Barney concerning Thomas Stuart Ferguson on 19 April, 1984. Barney, now retired, worked at the LDS Library and Archives at Church headquarters, in Salt Lake City). Ferguson also said the same to Gerald and Sandra Tanner on December 2, 1970: “Mr. Ferguson had just visited with Mormon apostle Hugh B. Brown before coming to our house, and said that Brown has also come to the conclusion that the Book of Abraham was false” (Letter of Gerald Tanner to Dee Jay Nelson, December 10, 1970, published by Modern Microfilm Co., SLC, Utah).

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265 Responses to Three Meetings with an LDS General Authority, 2012/2013 ~ by Grant H. Palmer

  1. Kason says:

    If there is any way you can give us confirmation on this, that would be fantastic.

    • Others are already verifying that this is the genuine work of Grant Palmer.

      Here is some background however:

      The story was passed to me in confidence about a month ago. The reason I received it was, I understand, because I had written open letters to the Europe Area Presidency last year, which had been ignored. Here was something which perhaps explained why. The source of information was a reliable one, and the content was very significant. However, I was not prepared to share it without some kind of acknowledged ownership by Grant Palmer himself. I contacted him, and sent him a paraphrased, anonymised version of what I had received. I asked him whether he could confirm the content. I didn’t really expect a response. However, he came back to me a couple of weeks later, and said he was undecided about what to do. He said that a couple of the details as I had represented them in my paraphrased account were not accurate, and that he might write a version for me to share.

      On 5 April he sent me the document which has now gone viral. Before sharing it I again checked with Grant whether he wished to place any restrictions on its circulation, because it would likely cause a tsunami of reactions. His response the following day was: “Go ahead and share it. There is no way this info will be kept quiet.”

      I am not used to blogging, although I have had a blog for almost a year. I have used Steve Bloor and Bobby Gilpin to publish my letters in the past, so have had no need really to use mine. I felt it was the right thing however to be seen to share this document, as Grant Palmer had authorised me personally to do so. If it appears amateurish, then my apologies go to Grant Palmer. What he says is the real concern though, and I and others who have reblogged it, are merely the instruments through which his information is being shared with the world.

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        Everthing that is happening in this church is according to that which has been written and testified of. The gosple restored was the another witness that the fullness requires 100% of one’s wealth and thereafter a tithe plus a continual giving of “all” one’s surplus property. So in print and in text has been given the law once more.The law taught by Moses from God was that any king of Isreal was not to multiply wives or gold or any other possesions that his heart not be lifted up above his fellowman. David and Solomon having been given this law choose not to keep it and thus were unable to redeem the Zion of God first established by Enoch where they had “all things common amoung them. The prophet Jacob and Abinidi understood this and taught this and for so doing Abinidi was put to death. So equality has been sought and taught by many of the prophets of old as that which must needs be for Zion to flourish and prosper in a way that is required by God. That the scriptures might be fulfilled Micah testified that the heads will abhor this judgement and they will pervert equity. And for this cause the lord would hide his face from them. There will be “no” answer of God. Not one prophet since Joseph Smith has testified that he has spoken to Jesus Christ face to face. The prophet Jeremiah testified that such would be the case and that ” In the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. The prophet Hosea also testified more especially of the House of Ephriam would forsake this law and go and build temples. That the people would be destroyed for lack of knowledge and that he would go and return to his place until they acknowledged their offence and sought his face. But do not despair as such things must needs take place that the scriptures be proven true. And they are also full of hope that once these leaders awaken and do as the Prophet Joel has testified to be ashamed and to sound the alarm in Zion. That they turn with all their hearts with fasting and with weeping and with mourning; and rend their hearts and turn to God. The prophet Joel testifies that they should call a solem assembly santify a fast and assemble the people. This also Moroni related to Joseph Smith must needs come to pass. Isaiah also testified that once done they would become repairers of the breach and restorers of paths to dwell in. That the scriptures also be fulfiled the Prophet Jacob relates the propheses of the Prophet Zenos that although the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts has become encumbered with all manner of fruit that are not equal nor have all things in common faithful laborers are yet to come forth that will keep these commandments and will go forth in the vineyard to water and to dig and to dung and to prune and dilligently labor until the fruits become ” equal” and as “one”. So despair not and prepare yourselves to hearken unto the commandment of God to have “one wife and do not multiply gold nor silver nor possesions above that of your neighbor. Joseph Smith has paid the price for following the desires of his own heart as David and Solomon and not less than one year after publishing his desires as doctrine, he who had been protected of God fell dead at the hands of others no more protected of God. Search the scriptures and feast upon the words of Jesus Christ until you are are full. As a type and a shadow of baptism of not even a toe sticking out come to know “all” the things he has said to know “all” they ways he has said to be like and “all” the things he has said to know. Any high school child given this as a book report to start with Matthew,Mark,Luke and John and 3rd Nephi to go and do a book report of all the things in these books as a start of the words of Jesus Christ as he has said to do be and know could do this and come back and give an oral book report. Some would get 100% on this test and they could go forth and teach his words in perfectness.So the promisses and blessings are there for all to enjoy that the day might come that they too might assist in the bringing to light these things. That the vineyard might again have fruit that are equal as in the days of Enoch and in the book of Acts and in 3 Nephi that they had all things common amoung them and had the power of God given unto to them and his presence. May the Lord bless you and prosper you in this thing and may peace on earth and goodwill of one to another come forth from this soon. And may the Rich and the Learned the Wise and the Noble begin to prepare ” a feast of fat things for the poor”.

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        Sorry, I did not proof read what I had written before I sent it. There are mistakes in my writing such as I meant to say of a book report of the words of Jesus Christ of all the things he said to do, to be like, and to know. And many other things I would like to bring to light that might assist others who have been searching for answers as to why things are the way they are. Please understand and know that I spent many years searching for the answers as to why things were the way they were having grown up under the influence of my mother who loves the church with all her heart. My wish here is that the books will be opened and that others will look to those things I have said and see for themselves what has been written. I have also read the Koran given by the angel Gabriel to the Prophet of the children of Abraham from his wife’s handmaiden that the promises made to her would be fulfilled as well. They are told that the scriptures are true that both the Jews and Christians have but that they do not keep the commandments therein. They are told no less than 99 times to ” do good “. I have also dilligently search the scriptures from the Book of Enoch which contains much light to behold. I have also sought to see how the light of Christ would be unto all from their scriptures and sought to know of that which was written in the other sacred books of Buddah and Hindu’s and others as well. The one thing I can tell you is they have all been taught that to have a pure heart. This is the bind that ties them all together into one and there is no person on earth that having obtained this pure heart could could walk into any church or synagog or temple and not be the essence of what their scriptures are teaching. And of all the great teachers that have lived I believe there is not one of them that can sat their example on this earth of being pure in heart can surpass that example of Jesus Christ. Yes I believe that every knee will bow and every toung confess that his example stands supreme as the way to be. For I have come to know of myself of his goodness and hope and pray that I might do as the scriptures tell me that I must do and fast and pray for his spirit to be with me that the day might come that I might be worthy of this baptism of fire required of them who would follow him. That I might be changed even as his followers were on the day of pentecost and as the lamanites were when they would suffer death in the most aggravating and distressing manner that could be inflicted upon them and only show forgivness and love in return.
        O how bless am I that I have seen these things and have come to know through my seeking and finding and my knocking and entering. May God bless all of you as well as you seek and find knock and have doors opened unto you………….

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        I have pondered upon how I might enlighten further how a return may be acomplished by those who have awakened to shame that they have not spoken with the Lord face to face and it has been as the prophet Micah has testified of the perversion of equity and not being equal and as one having “all things in common”. As the scriptures say come now and let us reason together I propose let us so do. And as Joseph Smith while in spirit revealed that it is not given that one man should posess that which above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin. How is it that this Feast of Fat things might be brought about for the poor? I have found that it is the rejection of the law of God that Moses gave from God that if your brother be waxen poor thou shall take no usury of him. Having been somewhat involved in the housing industry and having helped in the creation of a city in Southern California I have come to know that charging interest slows down the creation of equity in a home. If loans were made to people at 0% interest every payment would establish 100% of that payment in that home and not just a small part of that payment. Just imagine the boost to the economy if more and more of the poor began to aquire equity at such a pace the quicker they could borrow on that equity to purchase things for that home. And amoung the Saints of God the bishops could send out the elders to find out who amoung the church especially with children was still renting and not able to afford the down payment nor an interest rate on their loan. For with renting the poor never obtain equity and remain as poor always if they do not aquire wealth some other way.These elders who had found these poor amoung the Saints could report back to their bishops that they had found such as were poor amoung them and a way could be prepared that a loan could be given at 0% interest to bring them out of that prison of renting from month to month and of year to year and of decade to decade never to obtain equity. Is there funds sufficient amoung the wealthy in this church to loan these funds? I believe there is sufficient to begin the process if they who are wealthy and of good hearts open there hands wide unto their poor brothers and sisters as the law of God requires. Just think of what great joy and happiness this might begin to bring forth amoung the people and how the Lord himself might smile down upon us as Zion begins to be redeemed. Sure this may not happen all at once but line upon line precept upon precept the Rich and the Learned the Wise and the Noble amoung us might just begin to fullfill the law of God to so do.For as the prophet Isaiah has testified is this not the fast that has been chosen to undo the heavy burdens and to let the oppressed go free? We could become repairers of the breach and the restorers of paths to dwell in. Blessings could be brought upon this people instead of cursings great joy instead of sadness. And as generations passed and rentals became no more a thing of the poor amoung us and equity began to be established amoung all the members of his church would this not truly be a light unto all the nations of the earth yea even the whole world that following the commandments of God bring great blessings to it’s people. Dear beloved brethern and sisters I have sought for many years to understand the things written in the scriptures that give us hope. Search these things that are written in the scriptures and you will see also this great hope and joy that can be. Yes search the writings of the prophet Jacob of how he relates the writings of the prophet Zenos that the vineyard will be restored. And because this has been written so shall it be. And why not awaken now that these promises and blessings can be for our day and time. And how blessed shall be those who consecrate all that they have to this great work that is not nessary for their own.There may even be those amoung us who work even harder to add to this fund and work extra hours at work and make all manner of sacrifices until the vineyard has no poor amoung us. And the deacons and teachers and priests and elders and high priests and bishops and stake presidents and all those in the church from the top thereof to the least amoung us can keep watch to see that all are cared for. What think ye? Search the scriptures and the words of this one Jesus Christ and see if these things are possible and you will find that yes they are. Gather the Rich and Learned the Wise and the Noble and prepare this feast of fat things for the poor amoung us and may the blessings of God as he has promised to no longer hide his face but to labor with these laborers who would so do be fulfilled. Gather the people together and call a solemn assembly as the prophet Moroni testified to Joseph Smith would soon be that the prophises of Joel were soon to be fulfilled. All these promises are yours to have and such great blessings if the commandments of God are kept that none are exempt from this law who belong to the church of the living God ” in your temporal things you shall be equal” O how blessed am I for doing a book report of all the things that Jesus Christ said to do and all the ways he said to be like and of all the things he has said that we should know so many years ago. For these sayings of Christ has led me to be able to testify of these things and to understand the writings of the prophets with greater clarity. If anything I have written seems to be of goodwill and of peace it is because of that great teacher Jesus Christ and his council. It is my hope that many of you that read my writings open up the books and seek to see if these things are true and testified of by those who have come before and taken such great pains to preserve these writings for all to benifit therefrom. May God bless you and help you as you seek his council out of the scriptures that great joy and happiness may be yours to have and may this Feast of Fat Things spoken of in these scriptures begin to be prepared. Your friend and brother Robert Sinclair

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        As I am yet alive and have time given unto me to assist others to know and understand of things to come let me write unto you of this one “Enoch” the seventh generation from Adam who helped build the first city of Zion upon the earth. Enoch testified that he spoke with the Lord face to face even as one man talketh one with another. And this same Enoch a great grand father of us all was not Jesus Christ but a man like unto us. And this same Enoch had such great faith as he had been taught of his father Jared in all the ways of God. And Enoch did testify unto the people and those who did hearken unto him did flourish and prosper and were called Zion, because they were of one heart and ond mind and dwelt in righteousness: and there was no poor amoung them. And because of this righteousness and of there being “no poor amoung them he built a city that was called the city of Holiness, even Zion. And I would that you would understand that these promises and blessings are for you to choose for our day for In the book of Jacob it is testified of Zenos the prophet who’s writings were on the Brass plates of Laban that at such time as the laborers begin to obey the commandments of the Lord in all things they again become like unto one body and the fruits do become equal. These scriptures will be fulfilled and are for our day and time if we will but do as the prophet Hosea has testified and the Prophet Joel and the prophet Isaiah also has testified.Yes how blessed are all of you that are alive at this time that can see and understand and know of these things. That the hour is nigh to enter into the vineyard to labor to see that there are no more poor amoung us. To water and to dig and to dung and to prune and to labor dilligently to bring these things to pass. The way has been prepared by those who have come before and have written and testified of how these things can be brought about. So be of good cheer and of great hope for those things will happen. Zenos does not lie neither does Jacob nor Hosea nor Joel nor Isaiah. Great blessing are here for all that will hearken unto the Lord to serve the poor and to give unto them until they are poor no more. And as the revelation given through the prophet Joseph Smith from Zion, Jackson County, Missouri that a “feast of fat things might be prepared for the poor” Yea a supper of the house of the Lord, well prepared, unto which all nations shall be invited. First the rich and the learned, the wise and the noble. And after that cometh the day of my power. And as promised in a revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, on Fishing River Missouri it is time that the people prepare themselves and be taught more prefectly and to have experience of giving unto the poor, and know more perfectly concerning their duty to be equal which thing id required of them. And it must need be that the elders be endowed with power from on high.And just how is it that the scriptures have testified that this has happened before? As many were possessors of lands or houses sold them and brought the prices of the things that were sold. And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. And the the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common amoung them. Now at this time the apostles were baptized with fire from on high and after which these men who before had cried unto the lord that they could not even cast out an evil spirit of one had such great power given unto them that Peter did raise up and heal the crippled and did raise up the dead. And so also was great power given unto the diciples at the time of the Nephites and Lamanites when they had all things common amoung them where they did raise the dead, cause the lame to walk, the blind to recieve their sight and the deaf to hear. So be of good cheer for the hour is now upon all that will see these things and understand and begin to keep the commandment to see that there are no poor amoung you. Seek to labor in the vineyard to establish equity amoung the people and pervert the law of God no more. Seek dilligently to assemble the rich and the learned the wise and the noble to prepare a “feast of fat things for the poor”. Become as Isaiah has testified repairers of the breach the restorers of paths to dwell in. Do as the prophet Joel has testified and awaken and turn unto the Lord with all your heart. Sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly. Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God.And as the prophet Hosea has testified Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found. Who is wise that shall understand things things? Let him rejoice and be filled with great joy and goodwill towards one another. O my brothers and sisters how blessed are you to be alive at this time of great blessings about to be poured out without measure if ye will but keep his commandments especially upon his house that none are exempt from to be equal and that ye abide by this law given unto you. Open the books read therefrom and see what great promises the Lord has for you………… and let us begin this labor to bring forth the fruit that is equal and of one heart and mind.

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        “No poor amoung them” this one goal I would like to give thought and understanding as again how this might begin to be established. Every member that does not own but rents because they have not the funds for a down payment nor the understanding of programs out there for a zero down USDA loan or need help and advise on improving their credit this can be started right away with good council. The goal of no poor amoung us is possible by ending all rentals from any poor members and turning them into owners. And as is required in the scriptures the wise leaders amoung us can determine who amoung us is poor enough to need a zero percent 30 year loan or even a 50 year zero percent interest loan that the payments would be sufficiently small that they can handle them. Over time and generations to come eventually all members can own there own home or condo or farm or ranch or whatever was sufficient for their needs and wants and have them paid off where there is nothing owed on their property. The promise of the Lord would again be fulfilled as the people that had obeyed his commandment to seek to have no poor amoung you and “all” would own outright their homes save those who were still in the process of paying off their loans but having no fear of loss as them members from the deacons to the 12 woud watch over and see that none were in need and want. As members began to no longer have home payments to make they would have even more funds to give to help others to over time with faith and the blessings of God every member would almost assuredly become wealthy enough where even the stranger could be helped as the scriptures have promised. O how blessed are we all that these things are possible in our day. As stated the 12 and 70s could seek out the Rich and the Learned the Wise and the Noble amoung the members to gather them together to prepare this “Feast Of Fat Things” for these poor amoung the members. Then with the scriptures as their guide and especially the words of our great councilor Jesus Christ and in the spirit of come now and let us reason together these things can begin to be acomplished. And as righteousness increased and hearts became purified who knows when the Lord will fulfill his promise to meet with these faithful laborers and labor with them. May this day and time be amoungst the leaders of today as they do as Hosea and Joel and Isaiah and Zenos and Jacob and the lord has asked of them is my hope for all of us. Your friend and brother Robert Sinclair

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        As I lay listening to the words of Christ from an audio cassette recording I had made off a narration made by Charles Freed and Covenant Recordings a point of further enlightenment for those of you who can understand my words I wish to bring to light. Those of you who would take upon you the name of member of ther Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who would lift up the sacrament to your lips and covenant with God that you would keep his commandments which he has given you and always remember him ought to ponder upon the promise to be equal. In the revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland Ohio, November, 1831 – And behold, none are exempt from this law which belong to the church of the living God: In your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the spirit shall be withheld. This commandment has both a blessing and a promise that if you will be equal the abundance of the manifestations of the spirit will be yours to have but if you would not keep this commandment the promise is there that the blessings “shall be withheld” So my beloved brothers and sisters what think ye? As you partake of the sacrament each Sunday do you eat and drink to your gladness and hope of Jesus Christ opening unto you or would ye eat and drink that he would not open unto you?
        Be of good cheer for there is hope and all things are possible to them that believe. Is it possible to go and sell all that thou hast and give unto the poor that ye might live? Yes it is . And is it possible that you will not die once you have sold everything and given it all away? Yes it is. And will you be able to eat and find a place to sleep after you have done such? Yes you will. O how blessed are all those who can understand these things and have faith in the words of Christ. And how much more blessed are those who keep his commandments that his spirit will always be with them. These things are possible in our dayand time. May the spirit of the Lord be with you and guide you and may peace and goodwill be yours in the end is my hope for all of you. Your friend and brother Robert Sinclair

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        I am wondering if any of my comments were understood by you or anyone else out there. Am I all alone in my thoughts?
        Robert Sinclair

      • I get Upton Sinclair, you not so much…

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        Please take a moment to enlighten me if you will. What is it that you understand about Upton Sinclair but not of my writings? What is it that you do not understand? Thank you for responding to me as you did, I do appreciate the response.

    • We must have two witnesses to a crime according to the Torah. We are not to make judgement without investigation which includes the necessity of two witnesses before guilt is laid. We can not use hearsay. These two witnesses we need can be the perpetrators themselves who admit fault or others who watched these blood oaths in person of another. Hearsay does not work according to the laws of Elohim.

      It is likely that the two witnesses we need will reveal themselves, due to guilt in the terrible trial. It would however, be MUCH MORE advantageous for those two witnesses to come out and testify of their own sins in a public way, as that is true teshuvah according to Torah wherein repair would be made. You should not sit idle in your sorrow and fear at a critical time like this! You did the crime, take the heat for our Master Messiah Yeshua and His flock! YOU took the money to live in comfort, now subject yourself to discomfort to save your own spiritual soul and the souls of many multitudes! We have to safeguard multitudes of Mormons who area already going to be distraught in the upcoming trial in dismay of WHY all these things are coming upon them [Deut 30]. If YOU are an LDS church leader, YOU MUST come forth NOW in a public way with another LDS leader and state together what is going on, on the inside of the corporation. If you wait much longer, you will be the catalyst for the great falling away. And if you have tossed out the Book of Mormon and the milk you have received, think again! It will do you NO good spiritually to come forth publically and state you no longer believe ANYTHING in the LDS church is true. This will only bring you damnation. The milk and Book of Mormon are true as true can be and you still have time to catch this stone that is going to continue rolling forth unto the restoration of all of Israel. I am imploring you to come forth immediately! Go to the news together and do not wait! Many many souls are in the balance and need you right now! Give up everything now, as you are being tested. You agreed in your premortal estate to do this very work! This is why HaShem has alerted you to the apostasy you are in. THIS IS THE GREAT SIEVE! THIS IS THE GREAT TEST! YOU HEARD IT FROM A REMNANT OF JACOB AMONG YOU! This is an extremely URGENT situation. If I had a siren you would hear and see it. Let my voice be that siren.
      Shalom, sis Hawkins

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        Dear Sister Hawkins,
        I have read your comments and I understand your concerns from what your life has brought you to understand at this time. My heart goes out to you as I ponder upon the things Jesus Christ has said to do, to be like, and the things he has said to know. Understand that force and contention is not of his spirit for you to spread but that peace and goodwill for you to spread of his gospel of “all things in common” and of “love for one another out of a pure heart”. I would ask of you do you personally know of everything Jesus Christ has said to do, to be like, and to know it appears not from your comments and writings. I say this not to hurt you nor harm you in any way but with goodwill and a love for the things I have come to know from doing a book report on all the things he said to do, all the ways he said to be like and all the things he has said that we should know. And Christ has said to search the scriptures and to search the writings of the prophets. And it must needs be that after reading the words in the books of Moses and the words of Isaiah and Jeremiah and Hosea and Micah and Malachi and Joel and all the other prophets of the Old Testament and of the writings of the prophets in The Book of Mormon or as you may wish to refer to the sticks of Judah and the stick of Joseph the law remains the same to all seek to obtain this pure heart by following the words of Jesus Christ and become baptized in his words where not even a toe is sticking out. Yes is has been prophised that because the heads of both houses Judah and Joseph will pervert equity and not seek to have “all things in common” and to be as “one” the lord will hide his face from them. And this law has been taught by Moses that any leader or King of Isreal was not to multiply gold or wives or possesions above that of his fellowman that his heart not be lifted up against that of his fellowman. David and Solomon also had this law given unto them and chose not to keep this law and for this cause were not able to redeem the Zion of God as first established by Enoch. I have read the writings of the prophet Enoch and therein is much light to behold and benifit therefrom. Yes this gosple of Jesus Christ has been taught from the begining that equality and justice and of love for one another should be established. Joseph Smith also sought to have the desires of his heart published as doctrine of having many wives and for this cause was unable to redeem Zion as well and less than one year after being published he who was once protected of God fell dead at the hands of others. And thus we see that even leaders of great presence and power can fall prey to the wisperings of that carnal nature of man and as Jesus has said ye must watch and pray always that ye be led not astray. I wish for you and those who may read this to be of good cheer and to not despair for the scriptures are full of hope and forgiveness for all those who may have lost their way. It must needs be that after you have feasted upon the words of Christ and have come to know them all that as you read the words of the prophets you will see that all the things that are happening are testified of and there is a way prepared for us all to follow especially for our day and our time. It must needs be that the leaders of our day awaken to this shame of not speaking with the lord face to face and especially the house of Ephraim and do as the prophet Hosea and acknowledge this offence and turn unto the lord with all their hearts and to seek his face once again. It is also testified that those as yourself will sound the alarm as the prophet Joel has testified but it must needs be that the leaders not be forced to repent and return but it must be done of their own freewill. But what are all of the leaders and the people to do if they have not prepared themselves by knowing “all the things Jesus Christ said to do? and all the ways he said to be like? and all the things he has asked them to know? They will be as the scriptures have said like broken cisterns that can hold no water. And they are destroyed for lack of knowledge. But do not despair and be of good cheer as you search all the words of Christ as the prophesies of the prophets will be opened unto you which hold such great hope and blessings. Prepare yourself to help bring these things to light and to labor dilligently to help bring again this Zion of God to the earth. Where the people have “all things common amoung them” as are as one. Study dilligently the words of the prophet Zenos given unto us by the prophet Jacob about how the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts will once again have fruit that are “equal” and “one”. I sense that you wish to help labor in this cause and for this cause I have written this to you and any who also would wish to help labor in this cause. Feast upon the words of Christ until you have read everything that is written understanding that his light is unto all men and woman everywhere and in all the scriptures to do good! The koran delivered by the angel Gabriel to the children of Abraham of his wife Sarah’s hadmaiden say no less than 99 times to do good! And that the scriptures that the Jews and the Christians have are true but they keep them not save a few. O how blessed are the pure in heart and how blessed are they that come to know all that Christ has said and follow his great council. Again I will leave you with this promise and great hope and joy that peace and goodwill is yours to have by coming to know this one Jesus Christ in all his sayings and doings that have been recorded to this day. And there are many more things held back that are yet to come forth and be revealed when the people are ready to hear them. May God bless you and prosper you in all your seeking and finding of his words and of your knocking and asking of him that his spirit will be with you alway and forever is my wish for all of you that may see these things I have written. Your friend and brother Robert Sinclair.

      • Reply to Robert Sinclair:

        I absolutely reject your continuous false railings towards myself guised with false syrupy words. I believe your view is with an extreme misogynist mind set. I reject your false teaching inferring that polygamy could NEVER have been commanded as scriptures reveal your great error in this matter. I absolutely reject your attempt to take authority over me and control my divine calling in these last days as a voice of warning by stating falsely that I am attempting to force anyone to repent. In fact, your letter is riddled with false accusations in an attempt to belittle me because you sense that I have a truthful powerful voice and you are right. This attitude of yours comes from a deep seeded cultish mind control behavior in the church that all ‘women’ are beneath men. Such mindset is sick and evil. The remnant of Jacob are NOW among the saints. HaShem has REMEMBERED Israel. We are among you with the milk and the meat. We were awakened because we have ‘greater things’ to share with the sceptre of Judah that YOU DO NOT HAVE. We are called to absolutely TAKE DOWN ALL LIES IN THE CHURCH AND WE WILL ABSOLUTELY BE VICTORIOUS with that and with bringing forth Messiah’s interpretation of the Torah. So now the remnant of Jacob among the saints TREADS DOWN THE GENTILES with the truth. Perhaps you don’t like it and perhaps you’ve never met a true Israelite. So you best get used to the truth in that it is NOT contentious to preach the truth and that hard words are necessary for wicked times. Please, do not with your self righteous attitude, pretend to take authority over me with your misogynist agenda, as I can not be controlled by men who use slander and false accusations towards me as you have done. I am a daughter of the King Messiah Yeshua. I will continue to lift my voice of urgent warning when and where I am welcomed to do so. This blog in its nature is to destroy truths within the church and has made it an apologetic blog in nature. I accept all words that expose the LIES in the church, but I will absolutely continue to warn with balance of the impending danger to the sheep of the great falling away that such imbalanced messages as being spread in this blog lead to. I reject your preaching to me as it is with a spirit of belittlement from a mind controlled misogynist mindset. You ought really to take your own advice and read the scriptures, as the natural branches have NOT been forgotten, but rather remembered, as the time of the Gentiles is soon ending. This means the ‘greater things’ are coming forth from the natural branches to the Gentiles in the church and just as we needed to be awakened and immersed, so will the Gentiles in the church need to be awakened, hear greater things and receive another immersion. That is right, we natural branches are calling YOU into repentance. Did you think we were going to join you to become pagans? Think again Robert. We are here to roll the stone foward and preach the Torah from Zion. NOTHING will stop us. HaShem warned me of men like you in a dream I had of Mormon Priesthood members coming after me with a pitchfork. Your letter is a fulfillment of that and you do it secretly with syrupy words to fool most, but you do not fool me. You are a man who wants to control women. You’ll not have your way with me. I tread down men like you with truth from scriptures. I would recommend that instead of trying to take power and control over the remnant of Jacob prophesied to tread you down, that you begin studying the Torah of HaShem. Dayenu Robert.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        Dear Sister Hawkins,
        Where are the teachings of Jesus Christ in your words? All I can say is I seek in no way to have any power over you but have dilligently labored to bring to light that the words of Jesus Christ are the council to follow. To love your enemies and to do good unto them. To seek for peace and goodwill to be established. I have a loving wife and seven grown daughters and have no desire to rule over them but to serve them as I would wish to serve you and help you. Again I would only like to bring to light that the words of Christ the Messiah the Savior of the world and the Prince of peace as taught by the Prophet Isaiah in the Torah or the Old testament or the Stick of Judah are the words to follow not me. I have been a wicked man and have not followed the words of Christ as I should have but I do have hope and great joy from reading his words that if I would repent and keep his commandments I could be forgiven and that I also could help in this cause of Zion to be established once more as the prophet Zenos has testified will happen and must be fulfilled that the scriptures be proven true. May this peace begin to fill your heart and that the venom manifested be gone and anger no more at the sayings to feast upon the words of Christ is my hope for you. That his sayings are those you begin to type upon these pages. Your friend and brother Robert Sinclair

    • Debbie says:

      Robert Sinclair: I think it’s just that you rambled on and on and on (I read the first comment and maybe half of the next) and none of it seemed to have anything to do with the topic at hand. If you want to interact with people, give one or two ideas – briefly – and let them respond instead of churning out pages of irrelevent stuff. It’s a comment, not a thesis.

  2. mindreeder says:

    If these Mormon leaders are perchance reading this, I urge them to contact The Clergy Project. http://www.clergyproject.org/

  3. Andrew Callahan says:

    Is there anything you can offer to substantiate any of these claims? Even that this is in fact from Grant Palmer?

    • SC says:

      I have a *very* reliable source who confirms this is indeed from Grant Palmer. Take that for what it’s worth.

  4. Keri Anderson says:

    I read Grant Palmer’s book. It was the main reason I was able to free myself from the torment that for me was the church. I wish there were a way to authenticate what was written above. I’d love to know that Grant Palmer really wrote it.

  5. ProgExMo says:

    Reblogged this on Progressive Ex-Mormon and commented:
    This blog post purports to be written by Grant Palmer, and discloses some rather damning insight into the current General Authorities and their beliefs toward the truthfulness of Mormonism and the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

    While this blog post does align with statements made by Grant Palmer at the 2012 ExMormon Foundation Conference, which I attended, I’d be grateful if someone could help to authenticate this post and it’s claims!

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  7. Norm Thompson says:

    Would love to obtain some validation that this actually came from Grant Palmer. NT

  8. Jake says:

    Please Please PLEASE cite this. Some way or another, can you prove this?

    I really hope so..

  9. Postmo says:

    This rocks. Good work.

  10. You’ll have to forgive my skepticism but what evidence you present that this is legitimate and not contrived?

    • Moderator – don’t bother approving my comment, I’ve received confirmation from at least two sources that I know that that part about this coming from Grant Palmer is true. As for the rest . . . we’ll see, but I remain skeptical.

  11. Violet says:

    Reading this just sealed the deal for my husband and I a far as not wanting to stay in the church. We haven’t been acti in a year Our old bishop is now our home teacher. When w resent our concerns t him, hejust sa to have faith. We now know for sure that the church is a lie. So glad to be out of it It think of all the members that helped pay towards the $1 million for the G.A. That’s just wrong.

    • Doug Larsen says:

      I once gave a ride in an airport shuttle to one of the three men in the Church’s financial department who know where all the members’ contributions money goes. He said that the stipends of the GA’s do not come from member contributions. He did not know where the stipends come from, but assumed they derive from the Church’s many commercially owned properties.

      • AYFKM? says:

        If LDS Inc takes initial tithing dollars and invests in a commercial property which later generates a profit, is money received from those profits not considered derived from member contributions??

        Ultimately, all commercial investments are linked back to money donated by members, most likely in the form of tithing.

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  13. Sharon says:

    I had come to learn that the General Authorities must know that the churchs’ foundations were not true and I am glad that the truth is finally coming out . It gives validation to all those that have left and to know our leaving and the subsequent pain that we have gone through was not in vain. This of course will have far reaching effects for those members still in it and they will need such a lot of love and support . I thank Grant for never giving up !

  14. anon says:

    Now that this is out, the three of them will no longer be able to meet together. The church will put a tale on Palmer and stakeout his house in order to discover who the other two are. They will need to limit their interactions to Skype if they want to continue to conceal identities.

    • anon says:

      Moderator: if you decide to not post my comment because I entered a fake email, please get the gist of my comment out there somehow. I’d hate to see the church disrupt these meetings.

      • anon says:

        Better still, communicate my concern directly to Palmer. He’s a smart man and probably has thought through these issues already…but just in case.

  15. nickleus says:

    I assume the Q15 know the church isn’t true for the simple fact that none of them ever testify (like “prophets” in the scriptures do) that they’ve met Jesus in person–you’re not much of a “special” witness if you haven’t.

  16. nickleus says:

    None of the Q15 ever testify of ever having met Jesus personally, so they *must* know the church isn’t true–that they’re not “special” witnesses.

    • Remember that dvd sent out in 1999 or 2000? It was called Special Witnesses of Christ. Back then, as a tbm, I thought it was going to be spectacular with the GAs actually saying they saw Christ (maybe relating some sacred event). I was let down. Nothing of the sort was said. It was just pure testimony- something that one may hear any fast Sunday. There was nothing special about their “special” witness. And of course I pushed that to the back of my mind, rationalizing that they wouldn’t share such sacred events with us. What liars.

  17. Mosiah NL says:

    Total BS if you ask me. Too many red flags. An exmo FPR, if you will.

  18. Grant Palmer personally shared the same information with me when visiting me at Utah Lighthouse Bookstore in Salt Lake City. Sandra Tanner

    • I should correct that to say he phoned me at the Utah Lighthouse Bookstore.

    • Norm Thompson says:

      Sandra, coming from you……this….is now enough for me to believe and accept it that its Grants story, if not words.

      I am sorry for those who think such information will bring about change. I am sorry for Grant that this will likely end the important communication between himself and the other parties.

      I would encourage everyone to stop, take a deep breath and accept that the LDS church is simply a buisness, it will act in the same way any buisness would do to this type of accusation. Its pretty easy to predict what will happen.

      It will say first….no comment, then it will bring the charactar of Grant and any of those associated with him into question, then the faithful will……do what they are told.

      Nothing will change, even if the GA comes out publicly.

      It is so hard to leave the LDS faith that for most, its no longer about truth…..its about tradition, dependance and need.

      Sadly what the document states about the members need to being protected from this information (truth) is likely…..just that…..true.

      My prediction ultimately is the EXMO community will have a hay-day with this and the public affairs of the church will handle it to minimalize any negative effect.

      Our ability to create change in the LDS church as non-believers is sadly very very limited.

      We are better simply standing by and loving our active LDS families in a manner that we were taught to actually do as LDS faithful but seldom saw actually being done.

      This, IMO is the best way to mess with cognitive disconense of the faithful. True love and care.

      Ranting fighting sending this out to all who will listen, will succeed far less then…..simply being examples of those who can lead fulfilling lives outside of the LDS belief system,

      Norm…..as a former rather loud EXMO lol. now….I just live a great happy and amazing life.

    • fredwanson says:

      @Abraham Lincoln,
      … or not! Sandra Tanner has reiterated this same information using her Facebook account on her Facebook page. So unless someone hacked her FB account AND then took the time and trouble to also come here and impersonate her here too, this really was our beloved and respected friend.

      Of course this is all academic since John Dehlin and David Twede had confirmed the authenticity of this memo prior to Sandra AND finally, by publishing it under his own name on his Mormon Think page so has Grant Palmer himself (see http://mormonthink.com/grant9.htm ).

      So while I understand and appreciate your skepticism, in this case it’s without merit.

  19. Adam says:

    There is no way of proving this story to be true or false. But most aspects of it are extremely suspect.

    Apparently this GA knows that apostles generally take two or three years to discover that the church isn’t true, but Dieter Uchtdorf took a liitle longer. This seems very specific, given that none of them ever said to him at all that they knew the church wasn’t true.

    More obviously, the account claims that this is a GA who says that he wants to do more to get the truth out. But such a GA would do far more damage by publicly resigning than by encouraging the publication of just another anti-Mormon book. A GA staying in his post because of the social approval he gets, would just be doing the same thing as the apostles he criticises as evil and corrupt.

    Doesn’t make sense.

    • Yes, excellent point there, Adam.

    • Matt says:

      Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Think about it. If the church really weren’t true (and I maintain that it’s not), they aren’t going to tell anyone about it because of loose lips. The only people who are going to know are the ones who supposedly speak to God (the apostles and prophet). I think that they all believe it until they become apostles and find out the hard way. By that time they are doing well financially with the church and they have a position of respect. No one is going to flatout say that the church isn’t true, it would become something of a good ol’ boys club. By the time you are an apostle for a couple years and discover it’s not true it’s too late to easily back out or do the right thing. I have heard from other sources that the apostles get a number of “loans” that only need to be paid back if they break their silence. Once you get involved too deeply, it becomes difficult to extract ones self.

    • It makes sense to me, at least in some ways. Do you really believe that an evil organization such as the one described would allow someone to just spill the beans? Do you think an organization such as that would be beyond silencing someone? Get real. I would be afraid for my life. I would try to find other avenues to get the word out there about the truth of the matter. Which is what it looks like is being done.

      • Hmmm, did you ever see either the T.V. movie or the theater film about the document forgeries/bombings committed by Mark Hoffman? There were signed deals to have them made, but mysteriously they never were. Do you think that was the result of divine intervention or the power of the LDS Church that stopped those projects? LOL

  20. Wufarck says:

    Assuming the preceding statements are true, (which I do) what is the actual purpose of creating emeritus status for general authorities? Is it because they, as believers wouldn’t fit in? Or is it because they are not considered effective enough administrators?
    Do the general authorities assume Mission Presidents are true blue believers, or effective salesmen?

  21. Bobby says:

    Reblogged this on Mormonism Investigated UK and commented:
    This is getting Masses of attention. At this stage no way to know for 100% sure how correct it is. But Grant Palmer is someone who would move in these circles and so is unlikely to come up with this from nowhere.

  22. Doug Larsen says:

    I treat all such cryptic, needlessly coy assertions by the GA’s as bogus until/unless direct attribution is forthcoming….

  23. Randy Gavin says:

    This incident and conversation is way above where I served in the church….the consistent thread though, the ring of familiarity, the ring of truth is the dishonesty which is in the basic fabric of the way we as LDS from the top down all treated our church history. How painful was it in the 80’s to learn of Hinckley’s interaction with Hoffman, purchasing and squirreling things away.? How foolish did we feel when the ‘brethren’ announced the ‘salamander letter as proof that something supernatural happened at the Hill Cumorah’…how sick did any of us who knew Steve Christensen even remotely feel when Hinckley said at that news conference that he may have known or met with Steve, that he meets with a lot of people’.
    The dishonesty of Mormon leaders regarding the history is epic and it sets the example for the members. When the most godly leader that I knew told me that BY Adam/god thing was just a theory by some fundamentalist…and then I brought out Bruce R’s letter, it was….’oh yes that…well the brethren feel that if we let the issues of church history out…half the people would believe BY and the other half would leave the church.’ In this same episode for me..Kimball cant tell a forged document from a real one?, but he “knows” that BY never taught Adam/god……I did not want to leave the church…had no thought of it…..took me seven years…..breaks my heart…all the people I love….but whew!!!!!I am glad I resigned. There is life after Mormonism.

    • Norm Thompson says:

      Interesting observations Randy. Appreciate the insight. Having served in as Bishop and SP counselor for short time only I would agree.

      I think the fear that the leadership has about vast amounts of people departing the faith should they decide to….fess up….is valid. They only need to look the the history of the Community Of Christ (reorganized) to see what happens when leadership is more honest. The net result, was not so optimistic for the reorganized organization.

      They work, run, manage and are spiritually and emotionally indepted to a buisness. Most are very good, and normally quite honest and kind humans, but…….their loyalties are to the organization. Generally more so than to their God, family or community. I say this with no judgement for……I was one of them, I am sad to say.

      Norm

  24. Beauford T Walldrip says:

    If this is true; This GA needs to come forward. I have no doubt that the book that comes out of this will be worth millions. Too many people have sacrificed too much for this fraud. Too many people have suffered with guilt that comes from never being able to measure up. Some have lost their battles completely. It’s time to put an end to it.

  25. James says:

    Wait…a million bucks is all it takes to keep the apostles quiet? From a church with so much money that doesn’t seem reasonable, especially if they are choosing apostles from among the “church broken” who would know about the church’s ability to pay waaaay more than that.

    • Jason says:

      That’s just a signing bonus. They’re set up for life.

    • Jen Johnson says:

      I strongly suspect that along with the 1M (I agree it isn’t much), that they sign a very long and convoluted contract that probably would contain non-disclosure agreements as well as stiff financial penalties if said contract was broken.

      • nickleus says:

        no doubt about that. an apostle leaving the church just doesn’t affect himself, but his entire extended family, so it’s no wonder they don’t leave, even if they know it isn’t true.

      • Wouldn’t you think that the requirement to sign all those agreements would tip them off that this church isn’t what it claims to be? I wonder how many potential GAs have been approached, but refused the call because this perhaps tipped them off?

  26. Steve Davis says:

    President of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles Howard W. Hunter confirmed the confession to Grant Palmer back in 1990. I was a BYU Bishop and my ward RS President married Elder Hunter’s grandson, Mike. During the wedding day I had a 2-1/2 hour PPI with President Hunter where he confessed about the $1 Million payment to all Apostles, including a required secret oath, violation was permission to death. I told him he should not have a Last Will & Testament so his family will own his life story…..which he agreed to. LDS President Hunter is the only President who didn’t conveyed “everything” to the “Church”.

    • anon says:

      Steve, aren’t you afraid someone from way up high will “get rid of you” since you broke a secret oath? I’m sure the Danites are still active!

      • Steve Davis says:

        I have a monthly communicaton with the brethren because on October 9, 2012 I filed a Civil RICO complaint against Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff. Also Defendants were Mitt Romney, Thomas L. Monson (Kirton & McConkie law firm partner) and retired judges for calling me a terrorist with Osama bin Laden back in October, 2001, one month after 9/11.

        The case is in St. George, Utah State Court, now being transferred to the Utah Federal Court through my NY Attorney William Pepper, a famous attorney who reopened the Martin Luther King Assassination. Google him.

        The truth is coming forward and I am keeping the brethren aware of the Federal Investigation. I love the MIA theme verse when I was a teenager one year, John 8:32: The Truth Shall Make You Free. Thanks for giving me your concerns. The Church is being cleansed from the Modern Day Money Changers……

    • Dan Martelle says:

      You expect us to believe Hunter took 21/2 hours out of his day for a ppi? On the day his grand kid was getting married no less? What would his motivation be to tell you these secrets??!

      • Steve Davis says:

        Elder Hunter’s motive was to confess to the “Judge of Israel”. He was convinced I would know what to do with it. I did……..Open communication is the gift from God because the Lord has no secrets. Elder Hunter trusted me and my long standing and close association with him. From 1972 on I managed a Family Orange Julius restaurant at Broadway and Main, SLC. Every Thursday GAs would come to the OJ and ask questions about my knowledge of the scriptures. Before I served an LDS Mission to Brazil, South America in 1969 I had read the Original Book of Mormon 19X and the Bible 16X and had a very clear understanding about the using the WHOLE BOOK as instructions, and not just selective areas……….as taught in SS, RS and P

        Once a bishop, always a Bishop was taught by Jesus Christ…..passed on to the Prophet Joseph Smith.

    • Dan Martelle says:

      So are you saying Howard Hunter believed the institution was corrupt? Did he have a testimony?

      • Steve Davis says:

        Elder Howard W. Hunter wanted a way out. As the President of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles at the time of the PPI in 1990, he promised to give a speech which would expose the individualism of each “Apostle” as an individual. So at October 1994 General Conference he gave an excellent speech, quoting what President Joseph F. Smith stated in 1901 that any member who hears a false statement made by an Apostle of the Lord has a responsibility to challenge it and cause it to be corrected…..any member. All decisions for any action requires unanimous approval. So there can be an “Alma” with the brethren. I believe there is! One needs to check out the November 1994 Ensign and read it.

        The talk was entitled: EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES”

        “…Any major question, policies, programs, or doctrines are prayerfully considered in council by the Counselors in the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. No decision emanates from the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve without total unanimity among all concerned…..I feel just as President Joseph F. Smith felt on a similar occasion many years ago, when he said: “I propose that my counselors and fellow Presidents in the First Presidency shall share with me in the responsibility of every act which I shall perform in this capacity. I do not propose to take the reins in my own hands to do as I please; but I propose to take the reins in my own hands to do as I please; but i propose to do as my brethren and I agree upon and as the Spirit of the Lord manifests to us. I have always held and do hold, and trust I always shall hold, that it is wrong for one man to exercise all the authority and power of presidency in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I dare not assume such a responsibility and I will not, so long as I can have men like these to stand by and counsel with me in the labors we have to perform and in doing all those things that shall tend to the peace, advancement and happiness of the people of God and the building up of Zion.”

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  29. James, choosing from the “church broken’ means they would be the most likely to fall in line anyway. I don’t see this as a quid pro quo to keep quiet as they do not announce that the church history isn’t true. From my reading they don’t even discuss it, and the apostles find it out on their own. The million bucks is just another consideration for them to keep quiet and go along to get along.

    • Matt S says:

      Exactly. What do you do if you are one of them? You get into the apostleship and have your faith ripped from you. Do you come out? Do you destroy the faith of all those millions of people that you’ve promised so many years will see their loved ones in the next life? Do you take away your own livelihood at an elderly age where you may work as a Walmart greeter instead of as a respected religious leader? I’d hope that I’d be the one to finally break the cycle and turn the church into a force of good, but I’m not entirely sure I’d want to resist the lure of wealth, especially if I suddenly realized that maybe this world is all we have and we’d better enjoy it while we can.

  30. John says:

    By far the hardest pill to swallow with this starteling revelation, is that the unnamed GA was able to discover that:
    “each new member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is given one million dollars”
    “they are ‘church broke,'”
    “the senior six apostles make the agenda and do most of the talking”
    “it takes about two to three years before the new apostle discovers that the church is not true.”
    “it took Dieter F. Uchtdorf a little longer because he was an outsider.”
    “they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true”
    Even though:
    “none of the apostles ever said to him directly that they did not believe”
    So how did the GA know these things?
    …it was his opinion based on “[his] interactions with them.”
    “Also, that none of the Twelve want to discuss “truth issues,” meaning issues regarding the foundational claims of the church.”

    Now I don’t know that Mr. Palmer invented this GA and unnamed Mission President. I do know that since he published his book, he’s done a publicity stunt like this about ever two years:
    In May 2006, a four-part interview.
    In 2008 an article comparing the Mormon and Catholic Churches to the Pharisees.
    A two and half page article in 2010, “Religious feeling and truth” that finally got him the excommunication he seemed to be fishing for. (Well not quite an excommunication he resigned).
    This one is a bit late, but from comments found here it seems he has been seeding it for a while, only for it to now finally bloom forth.
    It seems that Palmer is prone to over-dramatization, he after all compared his dis-fellowship in the church (that same church that he believes is founded on lies, and that he doesn’t attend) to the trial of Galileo Galilei by the Roman Catholic Church.

    And that is just the start of the things that make this highly suspect whether or not it did originate with Mr. Palmer.

    • John says:

      I particularly found this line amusing:
      “When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” ”
      It’s like a built in argument against whichever apostle you are most inclined to believe believes.
      It’s like the other day I was talking to a famous publisher, and he told me that most authors lie a bit to create drama and sell their books. But I voiced skepticism and named____ as one who never would use such an underhanded technique. The publisher said: “Yeah, he does.”

      • Well I have a testimony that the person in question in both cases (i.e. Mr. Palmer’s story and your straw man) was Boyd K. Packer and nothing shall shake it. He just needs a license to channel his inner bully while selling books as a closeted unbeliever and his position as a high ranking GA gives it to him in spades!
        (tongue firmly in cheek – couldn’t resist, the setup for the punchline was just SO perfect!)

    • D. Michael Martindale says:

      I think your assertion that these are publicity stunts is suspect.

      For one thing, you’re alleged “pattern” is a pretty short one, hardly enough to form a pattern at all.

      For another, the Mormon and Catholic Churches ARE very much like the Pharisees were. That’s pretty much a no-brainer.

      For a third, there is legitimate reason to make a comparison between his trial and Galileo’s. A touch of dramatics, I suppose, but hardly reason to dismiss the comparison.

      There do seem to be holes in the claims of this heretic Seventy, but is that Palmer doing it, or is it the Seventy? Is the Seventy GA drawing conclusions from his experience with higher GAs that may be overstated?

      The validity of these claims is an open question, but I see no reason to attribute it to Palmer grandstanding.

  31. James says:

    Another curiosity of this whole thing…

    Why is it that the Q12 all somehow discovering that the LDS Church is not true, but the rest of the membership does not? Are the members of the Q12 exposed to some kind of secret historical evidence that nobody else has access to? Thousands of LDS members are ardent students of LDS history, theology, etc., and in many cases a lay member (for example, someone like Richard Bushman) will know the history better than a member of the Q12 but will not lose faith.

    So what is it that is causing all these LDS apostles to lose their faith in the church once they become an apostle?

    The exmo community might really, really want this story to be true, but there seems to be a lot of holes in it still.

    • Steve Davis says:

      The exmo community don’t know how to handle it because there are now “emeritus status” and “term limits” to the majority of the LDS leaders. Only the Q12 are put under a blood-oath based on Brigham Young’s open violation to a warning given in D&C 124:

      46 But if they will not hearken unto my voice, nor unto the voice of these men whom I have appointed, they shall not be blest, because they pollute mine holy grounds, and mine holy ordinances, and charters, and my holy words which I give unto them. 47 And it shall come to pass that if you build a house unto my name, and do not do the things that I say, I will not perform the oath which I make unto you, neither fulfil the promises which ye expect at my hands, saith the Lord. 48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord. This warning is connected to Moses 5:29 Blood oath between Lucifer and Cain, taught by Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young after the death of Joseph Smith: Moses 5:29 And Satan said unto Cain: Swear unto me by thy throat, and if thou tell it thou shalt die; and swear thy brethren by their heads, and by the living God, that they tell it not; for if they tell it, they shall surely die; and this that thy father may not know it; and this day I will deliver thy brother Abel into thine hands.

      The RLDS Kirtland Temple did NOT HAVE ANY BLOOD-OATH requirements, practiced in all other Temples of the Lord. This is why the RLDS were inspired to give women the Priesthood in 1984, plus allow the general public to visit the Kirtland Temple.

      • Askelkana says:

        So, they fear to speak out because of a blood oath imposed by an organisation they know is a fraud? That’s as illogical a reason as we’re likely to get here.

        Also, I suppose the Apostles have to spend most of their million on acting classes, because they seem to be pretty convincing in their convictions. Certainly, for good, honest but loyal men, they seem to have suppressed their inner demons and doubts very well.

        Sheesh! There is nothing in this article but smoke, mirrors and hearsay. It’s all bollocks!

      • Steve Davis says:

        On November 19, 1973 LDS President Harold B. Lee was repenting from him 1941 Blood-oath. That day he dissolved the 1923 Utah Corporate Sole, THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, with the State of Utah Dept of Regulations. Five weeks later he died (mysterious and FBI investigation). Please contact Dr. Mel Fish PhD, Cedar City, Utah. He assisted the head nurse at the LDS Hospital who witness the last two “brethren” who met President Lee just before his heart attack! (Packer and Hinckley).

        The Blood Oath took out other repenting Prophets (Kimball and Benson) through “head operations which made them into “vegetables”.

    • nickleus says:

      “So what is it that is causing all these LDS apostles to lose their faith in the church once they become an apostle?”

      probably the realization that they don’t have any contact with jesus or god, when everyone else think they do–as “special” witnesses.

    • D. Michael Martindale says:

      Faith is a very complex thing. People have all sorts of reasons to maintain faith beside mere intellectual evidence. The power of the human mind to rationalize contradictory evidence is immense.

      There’s nothing surprising about a Richard Bushamn learning all this and still believing. Furthermore, for all we know, Bushman could have as many reasons to maintain appearance as the GAs do.

      The existence of informed members still believing is not evidence one way or the other for these claims.

      I suspect, even if the claims are all true, that the Seventy overstated his case. I think the GAs probably do what we know Packer does: ignores the facts so he can preserve his faith, not necessarily blatantly admit to themselves it’s false but go ahead with the sham anyway.

  32. Amy Cutler says:

    This doesn’t really surprise me much at all. A million dollars is chump change to the LD$ church. And of course the leaders know the church is false…how could they not? They are the ones keeping up the facade. I just wonder how they sleep at night. Living a lie and knowing you are leading good people away from the true Christ wouldn’t be worth all the money in the world.

    • D. Michael Martindale says:

      I object to the characterization that the Mormon Church leads people away from the true Christ. Which part of these Mormon doctrines is not the true Christ?

      He is the Son of God and divine.
      He is the Savior.
      He atoned for our sins.
      Without his atonement, there is no hope for salvation, no matter what works we do.
      We need to accept his as our Savior.

      The Mormon concept of Jesus fulfills all the requirements of born-again Christians for salvation.

      The sin of the Mormon Church is adding extra requirements that cause people to sacrifice greatly, but unnecessarily. But that doesn’t negate the fact that the essential core beliefs about Jesus are there in Mormon theology.

      • As much as it pains me to disagree with someone that I like and respect as much as you Michael I feel like, putting aside my role of Mormon Studies Scholar and speaking in my role as a Born-Again Christian, I must.

        You left out a few words my friend and those words are important:

        He is the PROCREATED Son of God and BECAME divine through Celestial Exaltation.

        He is the Savior OF EVERYONE – Christian and non-Christian alike assuring them of resurrection but nothing more unless they work the Plan of Salvation.

        He atoned for our sins AND EVERYONE ELSE’S – again, Christian and non-Christian alike so they can be resurrected.

        Without his atonement, there is no hope for salvation, no matter what works we do.
        (on this one we agree)

        We need to accept his as our Savior.
        (again on this one we agree HOWEVER Christians would add, “to avoid eternal damnation” at the end)

        The Mormon concept of Jesus DOES NOT fulfill all the requirements of born-again Christians for salvation BECAUSE MORMONS PREACH A DIFFERENT JESUS AND A DIFFERENT GOSPEL THAN WHAT CHRIST AND THE APOSTLES TAUGHT.

        Granted, this is a cryptic “shorthand version” and admittedly far too general to be completely precise. I would refer the read to the recent debate between Latter-day Saint Martin Tanner and Presbyterian Pastor Jason Wallace for a fuller discussion of the differences between Mormon and Christology and Soteriology.

        And, yes Christopher, I realize that we’re both off in “tangent-land” and WAY off-topic but thank you for indulging us and I apologize if Michael and I trigger some thread drift here!

      • And please forgive me for not including the link to that debate between Tanner and Wallace that I mentioned. Here it is:

  33. nomomofosho says:

    Reblogged this on nomomofosho's Blog and commented:
    In the words of the song from the broadway play, Book of Mormon, “I Believe!!!”

  34. Wufarck says:

    I am left with one question regarding veracity…
    Since we all need to affirm our lack of association with people or groups that are antagonistic to the church in our temple recommend interviews, why would a general authority purposely seek out Grant? (OK, I know he isn’t antagonistic, but I assume they would think so, considering they specifically met to discuss disciplinary action against him.)
    I also hope that the publication of the above statement won’t result in an end to the meetings.

    • The disciplinary issue was long before these meetings. The GA merely confirmed that the order to discipline Palmer (earlier) had come from the top. They sought him out because he was someone who had worked for the church for years, had struggled with the same issues. He would understand their dilemma–Palmer has an LDS wife and adult children, and has faced the issue of being disowned by his former friends and co-workers.

    • Shalom, Isaiah relates that the true church in the ‘fat valley’ is apostate. He does not say that the true church foundation was never true. In fact Section 1 says that it is only the beginning of bringing the assembly out of darkness in the last days. These types of misconceptions being spread without a balanced message by Mr. Palmer and others, will cause the ‘great falling away’ as the prophets prophesied would occur, as when the true church receives great judgements in the near future for the apostasy it is now guilty of [desolating scourge/blood running down the streets, etc.], Mormons will think it is because there never was a true church to begin with. Heavenly Father has promised a strong delusion for those who would not believe the truth. The LDS authorities while apostate in some important areas, still have the milk of the gospel and at the END of the times of the Gentiles, this authority will transfer to Manasseh at the time of the Jews, and the Torah will come forth from Zion and we will have both the milk and the meat ‘greater things’.
      See 3 Nephi 21. Sandra Tanner Lighthouse Ministry is very imbalanced. There is a remnant of Jacob among the saints who are bringing holy things to the forefront and exposing the apostasy within the LDS church. If you desire a balanced story of the apostasy and restoration, see: http://LatterDayIsrael.com

      • Steve Davis says:

        Sister Hawkins has many skeletons and is 100% of Israeli beief that the Tribe of Judah holds special keys to save the LDS Church. A lot of bunk!

        They to Palmer’s information connects with my personal knowledge about the LDS Corporate Machine……….it is very much connected to the CIA and the Bush Sr. connections to “control” informationi.

        Every Apostle has to consecrate everything to the “Church”…..if they don’t, they lose their “retirement” within the System of the modern day money-changer rules (secret combinations). Lucifier’s target is the LDS Church. Why? The best of heaven comes through the LDS Family Tree……..under contract with the Lord. Baptism is the key “endowment” as taught in the Book of Mormon. Elder Richard G. Scott told the world that it doesn’t matter the person’s age or position in the LDS Church…..it all deals with Mosiah 3:19, subjecting oneself to whatever the Lord sees fit to inflict upon that person.

  35. Askelkana says:

    This is so far-fetched it defies belief, despite anyone wanting it to be true.

    It would be quite incredulous to suppose that this one GA alone knows that the Apostles (at least not the noobs) know that the Church isn’t true. How many more GAs know or even just suspect this? What price their silence? Can anyone honestly expect that the Church would and could enforce the silence of all GAs who are in the know?

    Assuming all GAs and Apostles start out as honest, God-fearing men, it is impossible to accept that none of them stand by their consciences and speak out about the Church being a fraud. It is ridiculous to consider for a moment that any of them would put the Church before Christ. They’re not stupid – they understand how the Gospel works.

    This article is a work of fiction. Hearsay and spooky language.

    • Matt S says:

      If it’s true, it will come out. It’s not always smart to insist it won’t happen, because sometimes it happens right after you say it isn’t going to happen. :)

      Think about it though. If the church was a scam, most of the general authorities would be believers. It would only be the inner core that would know. The ones that supposedly speak to god. What happens when you become one of the inner core and you learn that you don’t really speak to god? What do you do? Do you fess up, break up the church, destroy everyone’s dreams of life after this with our families? Do you tell people you are sorry that it isn’t true and then go get a job at Wal-mart as a greeter? Or do you keep the lie going, give people a false sense of happiness and security that they will see their families and enjoy the remaining decades of your life in relative comfort and adoration? This could go on for years, especially based on how they choose people who are suggestible (already tow the church line)

  36. Sharri Cook says:

    Mormon historical research and study of the scriptures is great for understanding what happened!

    Joseph Smith was a type of Joseph in Egypt with 7 good years (1830-1837) and 7 bad years (1837-1844) — See 2 Nephi 3. Most of the revelations were received during the 7 good years. Polygamy and Masonry happened during the 7 bad years. He started to repent of polygamy just weeks before his martyrdom—See Michael Quinn’s excellent research in The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power. If Joseph had obeyed the Lord and fled to the Rocky Mountains at the end of the 7 bad years, he could set the Church in order at that time.

    An apostasy happened in the Mormon Church like in the years following Christ’s crucifixion as the original twelve apostles were murdered. Unfortunately, Brigham Young led the saints to apostatize from pure Mormonism (Restored Church and teachings of Jesus Christ and the original Book of Mormon). Many eye witnesses testify to the reign of blood and horror under Brigham Young: See Fanny Stenhouse’ Tell It All, Ann Eliza Young’s Wife No. 19, Mary Ettie Smith’s Fifteen Years Among the Mormons, TBH Stenhouse’ The Rocky Mountain Saints, Bill Hickman’s Brigham Destroying Angels, The Confessions of John D. Lee.

    All of this was prophesied in many scriptures. See D&C 86:1-7, 64, 112, 124, etc.

    D&C 112:24-25 prophecies of the coming cleansing of the whole earth beginning with His House first. It began when a whirlwind his Temple Square August 11, 1999.

    D&C 85:7 prophecies of “one mighty and strong…to set in order the house of God…”

  37. Nonsense says:

    For a bunch of critical thinkers y’all are taking this nonsense pretty seriously. There is so much hearsay in this story it is hard to keep track of who is claiming what.

    First, 1M will buy a lifetime of loyalty? Yeah right.

    Second, a GA would go to Palmer? Palmer’s book is good and all but wouldn’t the risks of associating with an “apostate” be too high?

    Sad how quickly the exmo community buys into BS like this. I’m sure Palmer wrote these things but either he is being punked, he’s punking all of us, or he’s the victim of a hoax.

  38. Charles says:

    So I’m a bit curious. This Grant dude has information that he could use with names that could really hurt the LDS church “IF IT’S TRUE” and he types it out on some blog where few will actually read it? What, is he so loyal to all these “supposed” non-believing hypocritical Mormon leaders that he feels it’s better to keep their lies a secret instead of exposing them?
    So essentially Grant want’s the readers to believe that these one time believing Mormon leaders who no longer believe, that they train newbie Mormon leaders not to believe and this has been happening for decades? That their all in it for the lies and money? Hmmm, excuse my skepticism.
    As a saying goes, if it smells too good to be true, it usually isn’t true.
    As another saying goes, when something smells rotten/stinky, it’s for a reason.

    • D. Michael Martindale says:

      Nothingof what Palmer did is all that fishy. He didn;t go looking to get this message out. He was approached, and decided since the word was out anyway, he might as well out out an accurate report of what he heard.

      Lost of reasons to question the veracity of the Seventy’s claims, but nothing Palmer did was so strange.

      • I can confirm that statement. I received a report from a trusted source. I asked Grant Palmer if it was true. He said there were a couple of inaccuracies, but would state the case accurately in his own words. He then agreed that the resulting document could be shared.

  39. Gabriel says:

    It is interesting to read comments by those who see in this blog item evidence of a grand conspiracy. It can be read much more simply: When Apostles are called, they are given a large lump sum to resolve any financial issues (it is, after all, vital that they clear their closets of financial skeletons). It should surprise no one that these men are provided lifetime financial security in return for devoting their future lives to the church. And I’ve long understood that those called to the 12 have had spiritual experiences that outweigh any material doubts they might have about the Gospel (aren’t your TBM relatives the same?). They may have assumptions about what apostleship may be like, assumptions that may prove to be wildly off-base. There may be some disillusion (this being what the mystery GA referred to as “learning the church isn’t true”), and some beliefs about the foundational story may be undermined or erased. I think the blog is plausible in part because it relies to heavily on the mystery GA’s interpretation of what he sees as loss of faith by the leaders. He probably is quite mistaken, though sincere. Any random apostle could come to the conclusion that there were never any golden plates, yet still testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon. My guess is that every one of the Q15 would pass a lie detector test when testifying to the truth of the Gospel, yet harbor doubts about specific beliefs that the common folk hold dear. I think Mystery GA simply overstates everything he sees as negative. Face it: The Church is a HUGE financial success and is in no danger of failing–ever. Revenues are rising, temples going up, missionaries and baptisms increasing. None of this requires any “foundational truth.” The Catholic Church has gone through corruption that Mormons have never dreamed of, yet remains more powerful than Mormonism will ever be. The Bible is at least as absurd as the B of M, but smart people like Sandra Tanner cling to it. I will be disappointed if this all turns out to be a hoax, but don’t expect much to change even if it is verified.

    • Beauford T Walldrip says:

      ” Revenues are rising, temples going up, missionaries and baptisms increasing.”

      Your claim that revenues are rising is as suspect as Grant Palmer’s declaration here. The Mormon church doesn’t publish any financial information so it cannot be confirmed or denied.

      No doubt that temples are going up. The question is how long will they continue to be built at the current rate.

      I take issue with your final assumption. In 2002 the number of full time missionaries was 61,638. Ten years later with almost 3 million more members on the records, the number stands at 58,990 despite the “flood” of missionaries that resulted from the missionary age change.

      Since 1992 the number of converts per missionary has gone from 6.8 converts per missionary to 4.6 converts per missionary.

      The overall growth rate of the Mormon church has gone from over 4% in the late 80s and early 90s to the low 2% range in the last 10 years. All is not well in Zion.

  40. James says:

    This description by Palmer really only scratches the surface. The conspiracy by LDS leaders is much more sinister than most realize:

    http://truthaboutmormonz.wordpress.com/

    • So glad to have you post this. While unsubstantiated claims can be hard to verify and hard to listen to, the data presented by this site is hard to refute. I know it’s changed my outlook.

      Everybody ought to read this and tell everybody caught in the web of lies perpetuated by the Mormon church.

  41. vicente says:

    LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS! LIES! LIARS!

  42. vicente says:

    I DOUBT the veracity of this blog!

  43. Don Bradley says:

    What did Grant say at the 2012 Ex-Mo Conference?

  44. Gummers says:

    Most of these comments are fake. This one will not be approved. This is silly, guys.

  45. Pingback: Quanto Ganha um Apóstolo Mórmon? (Parte 2) | Vozes Mórmons

  46. Much more effective would be for this supposed GA and mission president to obtain physical evidence and turn it over to Wikileaks.

    I believe that such a GA exists and that he believes all this but there’s no real evidence here for the rest of us.

    I believe that until there is such evidence this will only encourage Holland-like rants like the whole “crawling over and around the Book of Mormon”. Overdone and hilarious to watch, but bought 100 percent by the followers.

  47. Brigham Young says:

    And you think I’m not a prophet… I told the legislature back in the 1850’s that if this church decided to mix with the black race of Cain that God would take the priesthood from you and leave you to your fate.

    All I can say to you is. NAILED IT!

    Thx for fulfilling my prophecy BY

  48. Al Gillham says:

    So all that’s left is …… the musical!

  49. James says:

    This smacks of BS. I have recieved countless emails over the years that sound very much like this post, nearly all of which were total BS. I learned early on to use Snopes.com and others like it, or Google for that matter, to check them out. If this had come as an email, I would have the same reaction, because it has the telltale markings of an urban legend.

    • So wise James. Torah says we can not establish a matter as truth without two testimonies. Much of what I have read in the past three years are embellishments I believe are made out of sheer hatred towards the church with NO BALANCE taught about the true milk and priesthood within. We can read Isaiah who says there is a problem in the ‘fat valley’, but this does not mean we have to run away and reject the truth. We are a light on the hill, a beacon for the lost and that includes confused ones who run the LDS church who have tampered with the wholesome truth and connected to the world. We can still overcome. The battle is not done, not by a longshot and those of us who like holy warfare are just getting started. HalleluYah!

  50. Reply to Mr. Steven Davis:

    Mr. Davis, Manasseh attached to the Tribe of Judah and are Jews. They will bring forth the Torah from Zion, the New Jerusalem in the future.

    I have many skeletons? Not so. I teach truth that you do not yet understand and so you disagree in ignorance. You have chosen to slander me with lies and I’m sorry for you about that, but I have not lost my sound voice of reason in these last days.

    The House of Joseph was only given the MILK of the gospel that Isaiah says the Gentiles will nurse Israel with in the last days. Once Israel is nursed, the Torah will come forth from Zion. Just read Zechariah about how we will be doing Tabernacles Feast and Isaiah about how we will be observing the Sabbaths of HaShem and not consuming swine or rats. See how the Zadok will be restored of the Levitical line and those types will return.

    I have no issues with the things you share concerning the apostasy in the LDS church, as many have been doing for years. I am concerned with the teaching that you share that you and your wife are the Two Witnessed mentioned in the Book of Revelations and the echad ‘One Mighty and Strong’. The Two Witnesses will never reveal who they are. They will be revealed by the work they are doing. The Zionic community will not call people to follow them. We will be all things common and there will be no rich among us and rich people can not make it into the Kingdom of HaShem, as the Kingdom of HaShem will evolve into ‘all things common’. You say you are rich. That is a problem. We are also NOT in the millenium, as the lion is not laying down with the lamb. I betcha, if I toss a lamb into a lion cage, it will get eaten. So there are problems with your current theology…namely that there will be no Torah restoration.

    I am concerned that you teach of the apostasy of the LDS church WITHOUT a balanced message that explains that the wheat are with the tares at this time and the church still has divine authority until the END of the times of the Gentiles, at which time it will go to the Lamanites. I am concerned that you teach that RLDS also has same authority. I can not believe that you teach this Steve and I heartily disagree with you and Karen on this as well.

    Therefore, when people teach that the LDS church NEVER was true as this URL that Palmer proposes and you promote with no balance, then when the tribulation occurs and the leaders of the church falsely say ‘the church was never true’, the sheeple will leave the milk they have received, instead of keeping the milk and speaking up against the apostasy, so what you have my friend is the makings of the GREAT FALLING AWAY that our dear Saviour prophesied to begin with. We are to lift our voices and be outcasts for the truth we speak. True Zion speaks truth that the LDS church is the true church and IS in apostasy. Not that it never was true.

    I am choosing to teach the truth of Isaiah in that there is a true church in the fat valley with the proper authority to bring forth the milk, but that it has been hellenizied with falsehoods and I taught this for YEARS before knowing of your existence. This way when the trial comes, the saints will know I have always taught that the milk they have received was unto their salvation and that they are in a testing season to lift their voice about the apostasy, but they are NOT to ever say that the truth that they did receive was never truth as that is the unpardonable sin. I wish your message would be more clear and balanced and that you would cease and desist from railing with lies at a true daughter of Zion.

    If you want to be a catalyst for the GREAT FALLING AWAY that Messiah prophesied as NOT being a good thing, then go ahead, but you have been duly warned. The GREAT FALLING AWAY will occur in the future when the saints listen to the apostasy going on in the church from some of the leaders and do not balance that with the truth they have received. Hard trials are coming upon the LDS church to bring them into repentance because THEY ARE MEMBERS OF THE TRUE CHURCH that needs to come out of apostasy. This has been and always will be the balance that true Zion upholds. Shalom and be well.

    • pioneer1003 says:

      Sister Hawkins – have just spent a few minutes reading your off topic rant about goodness knows what. I think you are missing the point though – Joseph Smith was a FRAUD, the LDS church is false, end of story.

      It makes no difference about Grant Palmers story, true or false, it will not change the truth. So anything you say has no meaning to most of us here, it’s all rubbish!

      • I do not know who you are, as you do not use your real name and are in the dark.
        I don’t know your past beliefs or how you possibly apostasized from the milk.
        However, what I do know is that the Spirit of the Living God, is more powerful
        than the darkness that proposes that there never was a restoration of the
        Melchizedek Priesthood in these last days to confirm the Firstborn role of Joseph
        as the Holy eternal Torah confirms. The fact that a man sins and later repents,
        does not mean that everything he ever taught is negated. Such a conclusion
        would have to come from a reckless mind with imaginations from the flesh
        that cause their own destruction. If I held to your theology, I’d have to throw
        out the first five books of the Holy Bible, as Moses sinned and could not enter
        into the promised land and I’d have to throw out the Psalms as King David
        sinned, and all of King Solomon’s writings as well. In fact, your theology would
        cause a domino affect that would cause me to burn the entire Bible.
        The darkness without the law and testimony that Isaiah speaks of can not
        perceive the light. I teach a balanced message of truth inside the LDS church
        in Isaiah’s fat valley [blessings] and that there is apostasy in the last days
        within that corporate entity that must be spoken of by true Ephramite
        watchpeople. All those who disagree with truth, rail at me with hatred.
        And rightfully so, as the lies can not bear the light of truth. This blog and
        mindset WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PROPHESIED LAST DAYS
        GREAT FALLING AWAY. If you want to be part of that dishonorable work,
        you as always have your free will to choose that path.
        Shalom,
        sis Hawkins

      • Why are you silly men allowing the evil of other men remove you from the good news?
        Messiah told us to study Isaiah for a wise purpose. Who cares who received a million bucks!
        We remnant of Jacob peoples are NOT shocked at this, as we study Isaiah! In other words, we already know corruption is in the LDS church! Hello! Most of you need to grow up and read Isaiah, as the remnant of Jacob among you are speaking a balanced message because we do study Isaiah. We also know that when the hard trial arrives, that those guilty quorum leaders will confess that they took money for their positions and that they do not believe the church is true all in one deadly statement. But here is what the remnant of Jacob among you already knows.
        We already know the LDS church is in the ‘fat’ valley which means blessings, so no false word of any corrupt leader will change our mind on this issue. We already know that when a leader succumbs to such corruption, that they are spiritually cursed and will go to sheol with that curse unto great refinement for leading so many astray for so long. So the fact that they are cursed and utter a cursed message that the church was never true, is just how HaSatan works!
        Do you get it? If you don’t, you should study Isaiah’s words for our day.
        Many dumb sheep who follow their leaders will hear this false report from the corrupt leaders and will believe that the LDS church was never true and this is THE GREAT FALLING AWAY as prophesied by Messiah. I am honored to be witnessing this very corruption, before it really picks up steam, so I can warn as many as possible, that the cursed leaders in the church will lose their testimony due to their own corruption. But I am led to say this: The LDS church is still true with the milk of salvation and also has apostasy. The key is to study Isaiah and realize that Jacob 5 says that the remnant of Jacob are ingrafted as I am and we lift our voices and we overcome the bad fruit on that Mother Tree who has good and bad fruit on it. We are overcomers. We do not leave the Mother Tree and run with our tails behind our legs. No sir. We stand and are hated for the truth we speak until we completely overcome the adversary. So all you men out there who have left your Melchizedek Priesthood and are running from the adversary are experiencing a loss of power of your priesthood, for listening to men in the first place. Now is the season to put your shoulder to the wheel, return to the LDS church and testify to the wickedness in the true church. If you don’t do it, we will and then you’ll be tread down by us. Be sure to know, I have spoken 100% truth and I look forward to helping build the New Jerusalem with the renewed Manasseh authority in the future. Manasseh was last and now he WILL be first. So get off your wimpy behinds and put on your full armour as you can not defeat the evil one when you are hiding in the dark and running.
        Sis Hawkins

  51. I think it’s possible that a few General Authorities will have doubts, but the fact is, when ones life revolves around a belief, you will continue to believe it in the face of overwhelming evidence. I don’t believe the General Authorities think church is not true. There’s no need for them to think that when they have so many excuses, unlikely as they are, for the evidence that contradicts the BoM etc.

    I doubt, if this is true, that it will really make any difference.

    Unless the prophet himself stood on the pulpit and declared the church to be untrue, church will continue as normal.

  52. My problem with this story stinks of “Leo Taxil” – ism. It sniffs of the same kind of sensational conspiratorial arguments made against Freemasonry for over a century. The idea that “folks in the upper echelons know that [name your religious target] is false, while those ‘ignorant unwashed’ below them do not” is purely ridiculous. It is as fantastical as if I said that the Pope and Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church all knew that their tradition was false, but were keeping it to themselves “for the good of the people.” I doubt this very seriously.

    Even if there were some truth to these “leaked” claims, the rumors via unnamed General Authorities, that OTHER unnamed General Authorities “[n]ever said to him directly that they did not believe; but that it was his opinion based on “my interactions with them” is a huge and problematic equivocation.

    I suspect that there are individuals at all levels of the Church who struggle with matters of personal faith — just like the general membership. But to cast this as some kind of sensational conspiracy simply does not ring true.

    The other thing that doesn’t ring true is the way this story is spreading. If it is so damned true, then why didn’t John Dehlin or Grant Palmer just make a public statement with their accusations?

  53. 2013 is just getting started. Things will get MUCH worse for the cult.

    I’ve said for some time now that the Apostles are PAID 2 million+ per year and Monson is PAID over 4 million+ per year.

    Doesn’t sound so crazy now, does it?

  54. It occurs to me that in the midst of trying to determine whether the content of these meetings is reported accurately (and/or even true) a small but important point has been overlooked: If this is true then it’s, “So much for the claim that Mormon clergy is unpaid!”

  55. Aaron Young says:

    First, if something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

    Second, even if this is true (sounds like it’s a possibility), this will do nothing to the church. The church has had high-profile apostates in the past, and if outed anything the GA says will be seen by believers as an attack from a bitter apostate who is someone who “can leave the church, but can’t leave the church alone”. The church’s persecution complex allows that to happen automatically. Also, the GA will instantly be condemned by all the other GAs and the Twelve/First Pres. Who will the members believe: the Brethren or a rogue GA? Additionally, with a million dollar prize ahead there will be plenty of men willing to step up, take the place of the GA, and tow the line.

  56. Gwen says:

    I do not doubt that Grant Palmer is only relating what he’s been told by the 70 and former MP. I also do not doubt that the 12 are paid the 1 million to give up their livelihood and devote the remainder of their lives in service to the church membership (if it comes from the Prophet with a righteous spin on it, why would they question it?).

    I do find it naive of any of us to believe these men do not get to this level within the church without being completely aware of most all the ugly, hidden church history details and even the current problems. Most Bishops and Stake Presidents have heard them all from their members who are struggling….why wouldn’t the GA’s know about them?

    What I have a problem with is that this 70 and MP do not have the moral courage to put their name out there and stand up for what they know is right. Why are they allowing Grant Palmer’s name to be trashed, but they won’t back him up by coming forward?

    I was as TBM as they come for over 50 years (BIC, temple marriage, attended temple regularly, held every leadership position available to women in the church, etc.) and it took a lot of courage to walk away and take the heat. I have lost friends and am treated completely different now by close family members. I have sacrificed a lot to do what I’ve done but I could not keep my integrity in tact if I continued outwardly giving a nod of approval to an organization that is false and deceptive.

    Why can’t these two men stand up for what’s right and come forward?

    • 100% agreement Gwen. Unfortunately the word ‘Danites’ keeping coming to mind.
      (since we’re in the realm of Critic-Promoting Rumors anyhow)

      However, if there really ARE modern day Danites I suspect that several of us wouldn’t around to post right now!

      ;-)

      • Marriner says:

        I have thought about this post for several hours now and cant see why Mr. Palmer wouldnt verify this if it were true. I think this is dangerous to spread such unverified stories and thats why the LDS jump it all together as lies and half truths. Were it true i would love to spread this information. I still find it hard to believe that all GAs know its bogus but none stand up for the truth and God reaches none to come forth as a witness for Christ. I feel whomever thought of this story didnt spend much time as an active priesthood holder in the church. Just my opinion.

      • Please note that Grant Palmer has since verified that he is the author of this account by publishing it on Mormonthink.

      • I have argued in print (Restoration Studies VII) that while there were no Danites post the Missouri era, there was created there an enduring institutional ethic I call “Danitism” that has survived down to the current day. Members of the LDS Church do not need organized meetings to know what to do to advance the mission of their movement…the original purpose of the Danites was to 1) expel dissenters (physically if necessary), 2) defend the LDS Church from ongoing internal and external threats and 3) enforce the orthodoxy of the First Presidency. Those principles have been engrained as a group ethic and ever since the Far West period of Mormon history have been the essence of Danitism.

    • fredwanson says:

      @Michael Riggs, I think that you’ve pretty much nailed it!

      Do you have any piblished work on the subject – I’d love to do a ‘deep dive’ into your analysis!

  57. Jim says:

    The story seems perfectly plausible to me. But don’t put more conspiracy into the story than is necessary. The apostles may still believe in their calling and in the church, but would have realised a couple of things after “two or three years”: 1. Some of the published history is indeed distorted or incorrect, and 2. Jesus isn’t turning up to their meetings.

    Below the FP/Q12, I think every member assumes that, even though “I” am not getting much direct revelation, the guys above me certainly must be. And I believe this attitude would go all the way up. It’s just that the buck stops at the Big 15. If they’re not getting it, no one is. BKP himself said that the still, small voice is still small at the top (paraphrasing).

    This is where the “church broke” aspect comes in. These men have already demonstrated in their church life that they’re “all in”. They would still believe in the overall mission of the church, even if they privately may feel a little disillusioned at times. Plus, don’t forget that they’re being treated as demi-gods by all those below them. Giving up is not an option. They know what it would do to themselves, AND TO THEIR FAMILIES.

    The million bucks is a no-brainer for a multi-billion dollar church. They don’t want them to have any debt or financial worries. It’s just that it shocks the average member because maybe it kind of cheapens the whole thing a little.

    Seriously, though, this story is much easier and logical to accept than the idea that they’re all conversing with the Lord and his angels, but it’s “too sacred” to share. (unlike every other scriptural prophet/apostle who would go into great detail about visions and visitations)

    Jim

    • Gwen says:

      Jim,
      Great post. I agree with all that you stated.

      When Grant states that none of the 12 believe the church is true, I again have to wonder what that statement (“the church is true”) even means. Yes, there are truths within the church teachings, but the organization (corporation) is based on falsehood, lies, and corrupt beginnings. So, I have to believe this is what the 70 is referring to and that these men become more educated about church history details, and how white washed it has become.

      I also believe that within the 12 there are still all levels of belief just like there are within the church membership. Some of them still most likely can make it work and believe in the good the church is doing today, etc.

      For those who say that none of them could pull it off and fake it for the membership (and even their own family members), I say, “of course they could!” Mormon chapels have members in attendance every single week who are faking it extremely well, including Bishops and Stake Presidents on up and even their own spouses aren’t aware of their lack of testimony.

      • Gwen, this is so very insightful. You are absolutely right. The word ‘true’ is probably defined as PURE by the 12 who know it is NOT all pure. But when they come out in the future during the scourge or other hard trial with guilt and tell their story in confession due to supposed fear of Elohim, then they will cause multitudes to fall away who had in their mind that the leaders were infallible. This is why studying Isaiah is so important for us in the last days. Glad to see someone here with a sound mind! HalleluYah! sister Hawkins [a Jewish convert]

  58. Tom Uharriet says:

    “But if I leave their employ, what will become of me?” Whatever else is (or is not) true, all of the general authorities have very comfortable salaries and/or retirements that they would not want to jeopardize by publicly speaking against the Church.

  59. Smeagles says:

    Hi everyone. First time I’ve been to this site and wanted to give my thoughts.

    I believe that Christ’s gospel, restored in its fulness by Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, is in fact true. I don’t like/believe saying the Church is true, CoJCoLDS, because I think that is honestly just a weird saying. Institutions aren’t true. The teachings of Christ and true prophets, or those who speak through the Holy Ghost, are true. Man should follow Christ alone. With that said, I attend Church meetings and serve in the Church.

    I believe the authorities in the Church to be good men with few exceptions. I think many of them are deceived and I do not believe this story to be correct wherein it says that ALL the apostles believe the Church not to be true. I think that is false. I believe some of them have seen Christ. I believe some haven’t. I do not believe, currently, that Monson is a bona fide prophet. Mainly because he has never claimed to be one. Everyone just assumes he is. Most Mormons don’t even understand how our own Doctrine and Covenants tell us to choose a presiding high priest. Somewhere along the lines, the presumption has been made to have occurred under President McKay, president of the Church also became prophet. If you search the Mormon scriptures the three presiding high priests, or first presidency, is chosen by the body of Saints and the Saints should choose someone “like unto Moses”. This doesn’t mean when you choose a presiding high priest he is like Moses and has visions, dreams and etc. We know that they are not chosen by the Saints but are more or less appointed by seniority.

    So anytime a people believes their leaders speak to God face to face as Moses and they do not there will be trouble.

    I do think men and women can connect with Heaven and speak to God face to face but unless they say so I wouldn’t dare assume that experience on any man. What I am saying would not be generally accepted among the active membership but the scriptures support such.

    Good luck to everyone.

  60. fredwanson says:

    OK, just have to ask since the fanatical fundamentalist rhetoric and style is so familiar …

    Sister Hawkins one of your other public aliases isn’t by any chance ‘Karen Davis’ is it?

    Just curious … nothing more.

    • Hi Fred, no I am not Karen Davis.
      I am also not a fundamentalist.
      I am a Jewish convert to the LDS church and I teach a Torah restoration
      and I teach a balanced message that the church is true and has gone apostate.
      I have been lifting my voice concerning the apostasy in the LDS church for
      over a decade and have nothing to do with Karen or Steve Davis.
      Shalom!

      • Thank you for clarifying.

      • fredwanson says:

        And in the interest of full disclosure – I didn’t know that Steve and Karen Davis were related as you seemed to imply in your response.

        Steve is even toned, reasoned, rational, articulate, reasonable and makes cogent arguments so it simply never occurred to me that there might be a correlation between the two online personalities.

        Thanks for clarifying on that point too.

  61. pioneer1003 says:

    Sister Hawkins – thanks for your kind response to my short cutting comments!

    I’m assuming that you know about all of the ‘real history’ concerning the foundation of the church, and I’m wondering whether you accept this history as being the truth? For me the buck stops with Joseph Smith, I cannot accept that someone who behaved in Josephs manner could ever be a true prophet – and Brigham Young in my opinion was worse in many ways.

    So, everything else, BOA, BOM, D&C is all irrelevant really – none of it is true, and all of your and many others supportive rhetoric won’t make it true either.

    Like you, I do respect our right to free agency. As a good friend once told me “the flipside to free agency is letting people practise it” this is so true.

    I wish you well in your journey.

    • Hi Pioneer, I just read your response tonight. No problem, I’m happy to have kind disagreements on my journey. Yes I’ve heard some history, but since I was not there to witness it, I can only pray to ask the Holy Spirit whether it is true or not. I do see value in affirming Isaiah about the apostasy in the church [Isaiah 28] and elsewhere. However, I believe our job as the firstborn is to endure to the end with our voices of warning of the apostasy. This means to me that we need to be willing to be cast off the good ship zion that is going in the wrong direction. I view this as part of our test. I understand why it would sour anyone away from the ‘so called’ true church, if they learn of the apostasy within, but I believe that it is part of prophecy and that we do not have to take on that apostasy, but speak up against it. King David and Solomon sinned and I still read the Psalms. Men are weak. They fall into sin from time to time and Heavenly Father also gives powerful delusions to disseminate to wicked followers. It is up to us to stay awake and warn and that is what I want to do. I hope you have a wonderful day and I also wish you very well in your journey of truth seeking. Shalom! Shalom! Your sister in Messiah, Sis Hawkins

  62. I’ve recently started a site, the info you provide on this web site has helped me greatly. Thank you for all of your time & work. “Men must be taught as if you taught them not, And things unknown proposed as things forgot.” by Alexander Pope.

  63. James says:

    As a former Mormon I remain skeptical of the truth of this piece, and I think it is important to acknowledge that even if it is verified it should not lead others to the conclusions they are making. For example, the disbelief of a few higher ups does not de facto mean the disbelief of all the higher ups. Further, even if the LDS Church in Salt Lake City is corrupt, in apostasy, etc. it does not de facto mean Joseph Smith Jr. was a liar. Perhaps one of the numerous other Mormon movements is in the right. Perhaps there needs to be a second restoration. There are many good historical and philosophical arguments against the LDS faith. I think we should stick to those.

    I will say, however, that I have relatives who have served in high positions it the church, some of whom have been believers and some who have been skeptical. One of my faith shattering moments was when my uncle, who I always saw as the epitome of a TBM (true believing Mormon), admitted to me in private that he didn’t actually know if the Church was true. He has never been a GA, but he has served in leadership positions, and has always portrayed himself as an believer without doubt.

  64. Anon says:

    Steve Davis is full of trash. Without breaking any confidentiality rules, I handled some planning for a now deceased LDS leader, and know all the details of their estate. If you think those guys get rich in that job, you are just flat out wrong. And you claim that they leave it all back to teh church is also wwong in this case.

    Basically, you have no idea what you are talking about.

    • nickleus says:

      your post is hard to verify since you:
      * post anonymously
      * don’t tell who it is
      (the first two are understandable, *if* you’re telling the truth)
      * don’t give any indication that it was a Q15 member

      and your credibility as an agent for someone in the Q15 seems questionable when your post is full of spelling errors, e.g.:
      “And you claim that they leave it all back to teh church is also wwong in this case.”
      should be:
      “And *your* claim that they leave it all back to *the* church is also *wrong* in this case.”

  65. Christopher says:

    Here is one part of the story that seems demonstrably false. This 70 purportedly recalled the good old days when there was only one Quorum of 70. Presumably, that is when he had one on one interaction with the 12. I find it interesting that the Second Quorum of 70 was created in 1989 and the Third, Fourth and Fifth Quorums were created in 1995. To my knowledge, there is no member of the First Quorum alive today who was a GA before 1989 and would have experience with the 12 described in this post. Elder Carlos Amada was called in 1989 after the Second Quorum was organized, but he lives in Central America where he his a member of the area presidency. He couldn’t be having monthly meetings. Everyone else was called in 1995 or later. Sorry, there just is not a single GA who fits the “facts” of this story.

  66. astutedoofus says:

    There is no way in the world the 70 “Grant Palmer” is talking to was a member of the first quorum back in the day. The second quorum was created in 1989, which means that our mysterious 70 would have had to have been ordained prior to that date (since he says he found all this stuff out before there were multiple quorums of the 70). If wikipedia is correct, no current member of the 70 was a member before 1989. Meaning our mysterious 70 doesn’t exist. http://bit.ly/YrQjfc.
    Come on people, this is hearsay and nothing else.

  67. Andrew Callahan says:

    When Palmer asked how he knew what he knew, Palmer reports as follows on the GA’s response:

    “When I asked the GA how he knew these things, he answered by saying that the Quorum of the Twelve today is more isolated from the Quorums of the Seventies now because there are several of them. When only one Quorum of the Seventy existed, there was more intimacy. ”

    So this strongly suggests that the GA served before the 1997 creation of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. quorums.
    The only current 70’s who served in the First Quorum before there became “multiple quorums” are:

    Jay E Jensen 06 Jun 1992 now in the Pres of 70

    John B Dickson 06 Jun 1992

    Carlos H Amado 01 Apr 1989

    Francisco J Vinas 06 Apr 1996

    W Craig Zwick 01 Apr 1995

    Claudio R M Costa 02 Apr 1994

    Bruce D Porter 01 Apr 1995

    • Christopher says:

      Andrew confirmed by point–none of those men served in the 70 when there was only one quorum, prior to April of 1989. (http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/1989/10/the-sustaining-of-church-officers?lang=eng). Elder Amado was called to the second quorum when it was created. He lives in Central America, which means he wasn’t having monthly meetings with Grant.

      Jay Jensen went emeritus in October of 2012, before these “meetings” took place. He’s out as a candidate.

      Claudio Costa was called in 1992 when there was already two quorums. Plus he lives in Brasil, which would make his monthly meetings with Grant a bit problematic. Same goes for John Dickson, who lives in Africa.

      Elders Cinas, Swick and Porter were all called after the 3rd, 4th and 5th quorums were created in April of 1995 (not 1997). http://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-history-of-the-latter-day-seventy?lang=eng

      The bottom line…this is a “doubt promoting myth” based on a general authority who does not exist.

      • While I am far from endorsing this story as 100 percent accurate, I do have to say that the literalistic reading of the timing of just when the additional quorums of 70 were formed is the worst in apologetic justification of a position just because you think the faith needs defending no matter what. Grant Palmer and many others know the facts of when the other quorums were formed…there is no gottca moment here to invalidate the whole account off by any means. I took the reference to mean that in by gone times there was obviously a closer relationship between the 15 and the 70, that’s all.

    • Wufarck says:

      The fact that the general authority knew that there is now less access to the 12 because there are more quorums doesn’t necessarily mean that he was of this group. He could easily know this fact as a ‘junior authority’ out of experience and the frustration that would obviously come from the expectations he would surely have had upon receiving his calling.

      • Like Michael, I’m very much taking a “wait and see” stance on this one. However, I think Wufarck’s point is well taken – all one has to have is ears to hear historical accounts from other members of a group.

        I wasn’t there when our team at work had a better manager and a different team lead but I’ve been able to get a feel for how different things are now than then by simply being a good listener. Therefore, I can say with good authority, “The group had more autonomy and responsibility before the changes occurred. The both the way things are done now and the overall culture and tone of the group are very different ‘back in the day’.”

        That said, I’m finding all these attempts to discredit or affirm the second hand claims of this mysterious GA based on Grant Palmer’s very human, very imperfect memory rather silly.

        Until a GA comes forward and either affirms, denounces, and/or corrects these claims we’d might as well be trying to “prove” the latest cover story from National Enquirer.

        By the way, Elvis really isn’t dead, North Korea’s missiles are filled with cheese not nukes, and Princess Kate is having a baby – I read in in the Enquirer and just thought you’d like to know!

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  69. I think Grant Palmer is telling the truth, but I don’t think the GA is telling the truth. How can he know the minds of all the 15 men who run the Church? Do they get together and chat about how they don’t believe in it anymore. I highly doubt that. Even if they DID not believe in the Church, do you think they’re going to speak freely with a Seventy about this? No, much rather, the GA doesn’t believe it, and he’s probably met other GAs who at least “hint” at this. But I highly doubt that he “knows” that the 15 Big Elders don’t believe it. The Big Elders simply wouldn’t share such private thoughts with their own wives, much less a Seventy. No doubt Grant is telling the truth, but the GA is either lying, or, more likely, stating what he “thinks” is true but does not “know” it is true.

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  72. Steve Davis says:

    Robert Sinclair has stated good things about the ancient records warning us about the “Latter Day Money-Changers”. There is no question that modern day Babylon is Salt Lake, as warned by the Prophet Isaiah. I have personal knowledge through a direct PPI with Apostle Howard W. Hunter, who stated “these old men are tired and want the truth to come forward”. Many hints and partial stories come through GA family members, especially those who are young and wiling to investigate why those called Apostles don’t have any financial worries after they came to Salt Lake and worked under a Blood-oach secret promise, as warned in Moses 5:29.

    • Robert Sinclair says:

      Dear Steve:

      I would like to bring to light that all that is required of these leaders is as Hosea has testified that they acknowledge their offence, and begin to prepare “a feast of fat things for the poor” to get togerther with broken hearts and contrite sprits and do as the prophet Joel has testified to santify a fast and call a solemn assembly. To return and keep the commanment upon all members from the prophet to the least amoung us to be equal and to have “all things common”. Return and the blessings of the Lord will pour out upon them, blessings instead of cursings and joy instead of sorrow. These things will be fulfilled as the prophet Jacob has testified it is only a matter of who amoung them is ready to begin and starts the process of return to do these things.These men have good hearts and have been blinded as was required by the scriptures that they might be fulfilled and proven true. Be prepared yourself for great things are about to happen and you too may be a part of this great doing by searching the words of Jesus Christ until you know all that he has said to do to be like and to know. Search dilligently of how you yourself might help in this great cause of bringing these these things to light and of helping with the ” feast of fat things” for the poor amoung us. May God bless you and give you peace and the spirit of goodwill towards these men is my wish and hope for you that you might have this great joy as well in that which you endever to pursue. Your friend Robert.

      • Steve Davis says:

        Thanks Robert and I am doing my best in personally assisting the brethren to admit through the teachings of Elder Spencer W. Kimball’s book, MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS, which requires restitution as part of the “process”. In my St. George, Utah Civil RICO case against Thomas L. Monson, son to President Monson and a partner with Kirton & McConkie law firm, I let key “leaders” know about “generational patterns”. Tom L. was released as a UofU Single Ward Bishop in 2012, and yet hasn’t allow Kimball’s book to become a part of his life-style. Attached is an article where young Monson did a “cover-up” rather than admission for an act of repentance.
        Thanks again, Robert, I am doing this with love, but also, as President Ezra Taft Benson told me when he called me to serve at the BYU, like what happened to Bishop Monson: ONCE A BISHOP, ALWAYS A BISHOP”.

        https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=ja&fromgroups=#!topic/alt.religion.mormon/6quMKuVd8RY

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        Dear Steve:
        My heart goes out to you that I believe that you also wish to do good and with love. But I wish you to know and understand the power of darkness and it is real. I have felt of myself of it’s power and can tell you that any contention is of him and that any desire to force rather than to pursue that of freewill is also of him and his angels that are with him. Be aware and feast dilligently upon the words of Christ that he may guide you and protect you. There are those who surround you that would have you that you cannot yet see. But be of good cheer as you read the words of christ they will not be able to have power with you and as you hold fast to the words of Christ in your every thought and action you also will come to know the true power of love and of it’s great joy. Again feast upon the words of Christ and any of you who would see these writings may you also feast upon tha words of this one Jesus Christ who if you will but hearken to his voice and follow that which he says to do will guide you as well. May the Lord bless you and may great joy come to all of you that hearken unto his words. Your friend and brother Robert

      • nickleus says:

        “But I wish you to know and understand the power of darkness and it is real. I have felt of myself of it’s power and can tell you that any contention is of him and that any desire to force rather than to pursue that of freewill is also of him and his angels that are with him.”

        i assume you’re referring to the “power of darkness” mentioned in the book that says the earth is only ~6000 years old?

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        Dear Nickleus:
        I speak of the sons of perdition,who have sold their souls to darkness. Those who know the way of life and light but have embraced instead contention and hatred, anger and despair on whom the second death will have power. Where intense suffering exists and ignorance abounds. And it is in this state of ignorance that they would have you yourself stay in that you also might join them in misery and despair that they may have claim upon you that you are theirs and not the followers of this one Jesus Christ. And if it so be that you spend the days of this life and come to know not all the things that Jesus said to do and all the ways he said to be like and all the things he said to know and rest upon your own thoughts as to what you should do,be like,and know beware that the wisperings of these unseen beings do not enter into your heart and become as one with your thoughts. For the day will surely come when many will knock for Jesus to open unto them but because they knew not the things he said to do, to be like, and to know and did them not he will answer unto to them I know you not. And he will not open unto to them as he has said. O my friend again I would ask of you to feast upon the words of Christ until you know them “all”. Then with a broken heart and a contrite spirit seek to do the things he said to do and be the ways he said to be like and to know of those things he has said to know. Upon you I wish the blessings of God and that peace and goodwill towards your fellowman will fill your heart. That you will feast upon the words of Christ until you also come to know more assuredly of this power of darkness of which I have spoken and you run away from it and towards great joy and happiness. May this great joy and happiness come to be yours to claim through your feasting upon the words of Christ and holding fast unto them is my hope for you. Your friend and brother, Robert Sinclair

  73. fredwanson says:

    And the battle of the soap-boxers is on!

    Personally, all I hear when I get preached at from a soap box are fingernails being drawn across a chalkboard – it’s truly “wonderful”!

    How about a reasoned dialog from logic, reason, and evidence instead?

    Thanks.

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  75. Elohim says:

    It always amazes me how black and white thinkers leave the Mormon church and its’ hard core expression of complete truth and knowledge only to remain black and white thinkers but with a knowledge of the falseness of the church. So what if most of the evidence points towards it not being true. This in no way compels me to believe so. There have been countless cases where people have been tried and found guilty of crimes only to be later pardoned when new evidence is found. In humility I recognize the claims of the church may or may NOT be true. The truth is, there is no way to be 100% certain. So we choose to believe or disbelieve as we see fit. Then confirmation bias compels us to gather evidence only to support our claim. This article is a great example of this. So someone posts on the web that Palmer knows the 12 are liars…and so many here are accepting this blindly. Then you have other “verified” people (can’t change their name?) who bare testimony that the source is good… Nice.

    • Dear El,
      While for those that make the effort to “drill down” into LDS history to not be deeply disturbed by what they will find in all periods of the movement’s past is rare. For those that do and then decide to stay it takes what William James called an enormous “Will to Believe,” I sympathize with your position and understand your desire to stay based on the hope that evidence will eventually swing in your favor. For me, however, it wasn’t the history problems that ultimately separated me from your church (although I had studied it thoroughly and still do)…no, it was this simple question that haunted me, “you can have doctrines and creeds, but what good comes from them”? I asked myself, “if Mormonism had never happened, would it have made much of a difference to humanity”? For me, the answer was clearly “no.” For you, it might be different.

    • nickleus says:

      “The truth is, there is no way to be 100% certain”
      the bible implies that the earth is ~6000 years old. the amount of scientific evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. you’re right, we don’t have *100%* certainty, but we have *enough* to be able to *conclude, based on the available evidence*, that the church’s claims are *most likely* false.

      • Sharon Cook says:

        Steve Davis teaches that this earth is Kolob, the original and oldest earth created by Heavenly Father. The creation for this 7,000 year earth cycle was a refashioning / reforming of the earth’s surface features and atmosphere as I understand it.

    • @Elohim, you wrote:
      “There have been countless cases where people have been tried and found guilty of crimes only to be later pardoned when new evidence is found.”

      Well, in response, I would ask: Joseph Smith and the Latter Day Saint Movement has now had 183-years to exonerate itself. Its case started out weak and over time has gotten weaker, weaker, and weaker. Every new piece of evidence that comes forth (including the constant stream of spin-doctored “irrefutable evidence” from Mormon Apologists) weakens the case even more.

      So at what point does one finally admit to one’s self what’s been so obvious to those on the outside looking in for those 183-years? Or put another way, at what point does one look at the ever growing mountain of evidence and admit, “There is no way that the claims of Joseph Smith can possibly be true!”

      • Fred, I’m not defending Mormonism, but to be fair, the same arguments about factual origin claims could be made of all other religions as well. For many people, they pick the myths they are most comfortable with and live them. I have the type of personality that isn’t attracted to myths, so ultimately Mormonism didn’t work for me, but I don’t fault those that stay if it makes them happier than leaving. I do push back against organized religion, however, when they try to cross the boundary between Church and State. If you want to worship green tree frogs, fine, but don’t pass laws that say I have to as well.

      • Point taken Michael. However, as Bill Maher, as well as many others, have correctly pointed out: Most other religions can make SOME credible truth claims that will endure scrutiny, the religion based on Joseph Smith’s claims can’t.

      • I don’t privilege religions, one is as kookie as another if you are using logic as the basis of your analysis (which on a personal level I do).. If I were their contemporaries, I won’t have been compelled to follow: Gautama, Jesus, Mohammad, the Fox Sisters or Joseph Smith. It would be a boring world without them all though! ;-)

      • nickleus says:

        “they pick the myths they are most comfortable with and live them.”
        i think alot of people are born into the religion of their parents and brainwashed into believing it is reality/fact. i was. “picking a myth” just sounds odd. i wonder what statistics are available about how many kids who are born into a non-religious family, move on to choose a religion/myth?

        of course, i expect someone to respond with somethink like “atheism is just like religion too–parents brainwashing their kids to be atheists”, but in my case, my non-belief is based on scientific evidence, rational thinking, experimentation etc…

      • @Michael Riggs, LOL! 100% agreement with that last assessment my friend 100% agreement!
        ;-)

  76. RICH SALAS says:

    IF THE GAs ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT IN THE BELIEF THAT MORMONISM IS FALSE, PERHAPS THAT MIGHT BE THE REASON WE SEE THE LDS MOVEMENT WANTING TO BE IDENTIFIED AS CHRISTIAN. SHOULD THE TRUTH OF THIS BE REVEALED TO THE LDS CHURCH IN THE NEAR FUTURE THEN THERE WOULD BE A PLACE TO FALL FOR THE LDS BELIEVER.

  77. John J. says:

    A strong indicator to me of what they believe and know is expressed in the fact that there has been no attempt to build New Jerusalem in Missouri. If we are so close to the Second Coming, then why are they spending billions on shopping malls instead of this grand city that is supposed to serve as a seat of government in this hemisphere. Did they want to give Adam the chance to get out of his fig leaf buy shopping at City Creek Center before this grand council that is a precursor to the Second Coming takes place? Oh, that’s right; that is supposed to take place at Adam-ondi-ahman in Missouri also! I guess they will just have to line up their tents, like those that listened to King Benjamin’s address. Now they are changing their interpretation of it all by saying Zion is a mental attitude and it doesn’t matter where the Saints gather. Neither did they build the city of Zarahemla across the river from Nauvoo as directed in D&C 125:3. As if the God that told them you cannot serve Him and mammon is going to be proud of the Corporate Empire – LD$ Inc. Perhaps that was something Harold B. Lee pondered before he decided to dissolve it without conferring with the Board of Directors and meeting his demise?

    • pioneer1003 says:

      John J – I think you are right here. As time goes on, the old church (Josephs church) is seen to be irrelevant by the modern organization – almost an embarassment! I want to know what happens when it gets to the turn of the next century and Christ’s second coming is still being awaited, and also nothing has happened in Missouri. Will the members wake up then?

      • No more than Orthodox Christians still await an event that their Apostle Paul said would come very soon…only a couple of thousand years off in his prediction of the return of Jesus as well. Cognitive dissonance is not limited to Mormonism when it comes to end-time belief groups.

      • John J. says:

        They all but spit on Joseph’s legacy. They removed the statues of Joseph and Hyrum that were beside the front door of the SLC Temple. They have edited the “unchanging” Endowment and temple ceremonies to suit their own limited understandings of the allegorical meanings. And then they rename Hotel Utah after him, although they know its basement served as a bar and brothel. Joseph is getting a bad rap for actions of the Brighamites. The true history of the early church is detailed in the book, Without Disclosing My True Identity – the official and authorized biography of the Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. If people would read this free book they would not likely throw the baby out with the bath water. Where anti-Mormons grossly miss the mark is that there is no book more “anti-Mormon” than the Book of Mormon, so why do they attack Joseph if he was the author as they claim? It condemns the practice of polygamy, banning people from religious sites, seeking after riches and neglecting the poor, fast and testimony meetings (ramaeumptum), and clinging to the Laws of Moses, etc. Once the United Order was rejected the only thing that was restored was the Law of Outward Ordinances of the Laws of Moses. The BOM tells them Joseph would be one “like unto Moses”. Well, what did Moses do for the Jews. He gave them the religion they desired. They too were unworthy of the law written on the first set of stone tablets and given an alternate set of laws based upon the desires of their hearts, so they might stumble. Exodus Chapter 18 describes how the Jewish religion came into being. According to the Bible, they did not have an organized religion until after they were freed from Pharaoh. Kind of shoots holes in the claim of being God’s Chosen People doesn’t it?! Now, people should have a clue as to why Lucifer asks Adam if he wants religion in the Temple Endowment. The original endowment script has Adam asking Peter if we shall ever have prophets and apostles. Peter’s reply was no, but to ask them to cut off an arm and restore it to provide proof that they come with power and authority from God. D&C 121:39 clearly states their priesthood authority is “supposed” and is verified in the Sacrament Prayers, in which a priest claiming to have the power and authority to act for God for some strange reason asks God to bless and sanctify the emblems, instead of doing it himself! Lucifer (the mortal mind) is the one that answers Adams’ prayer in the Endowment. All these teachings had to be veiled in allegory because if Joseph spoke plainly to them, they would rise up and kill him, as he reiterated many times. The claims that Joseph was a polygamists are ridiculous because Mormons claim one of the express purposes of the practice was to out populate the world to increase their influence. If Joseph had thirty-something wives, where are the children from these other so-called marriages? We know Joseph wasn’t sterile and to believe 33 women were is just stupid. There was good reason why NONE of Joseph’s family followed Bring’ em Young West and why the RLDS religion did not endorse the practice of polygamy. If Joseph had taught that it was necessary for salvation, don’t people think the RLDS would have made it doctrine? Joseph also ordained blacks an women to the priesthood. Why wouldn’t he since “the keystone of the religion” states, “all are alike unto God…black and white…male and female” (2 Nephi 26:33) The coverup with blacks and the priesthood was exposed when M. Russell Ballard dedicated the grave monument of Elijah Abel in the SLC Cemetery. This act verified the information engraved on the stone was fact and that Official Declaration 2 was a lie. The slip-up prompted the change to the header of the declaration this year. They are trying to avoid lawsuits demanding the repayment of tithes obtained through the reporting of false histories and deliberate fraud that could jeopardize their tax-exempt status. Just because they have closed the church archives to researches doesn’t mean their was clarity on whether the ordinations took place. Besides, if you claim to be prophets, seers and revelators, why would it take from 1836 to 1978 to get the answer? Would a Hofmann forgery fool a true prophet or a fool? Not what I consider a “House of Order”. True “Mormonism” no longer exists. There have been thousands of edits to the BOM despite the promise, the would receive greater things if they did not condemn the mistakes of men made in the translation. The mistakes were known and acknowledged in the Title Page of the BOM and deliberately left in so critics of correctness would stumble over grammatical errors ignoring the important principles found in its pages. Joseph tried to teach correct principles, so the people could govern themselves by promoting the ideology of doing unto others as you would have done unto them in a United Order. Organized religion rules the lives of its members. (Luke 17:21, Galatians 5:18) Joseph tried to help people restore the kingdom of God that lies within themselves. Brigham gave them the gospel according to himself, in the form of a church that is the opposite. The LD$ Church tries to attach itself to the United Order by having Endowed members take an oath to live it if called upon in the future. But that farce is exposed in their own scriptures that tell them the Law of Tithes found in the Laws of Moses will be a standing law unto them FOREVER! (D&C 119:4)

  78. Due to the untrue statements made at this very public site towards myself/ministry belief system from Steven Davis, I have made an ANSWERING STEVE and KAREN DAVIS URL at my site. Please bookmark it and check it frequently, as I will be reviewing their website and new book and will report scripturally where I find doctrinal errors and also what I agree with:

    http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-efrayim/apologetics/answering-steve-karen-davis/

    Sister Hawkins

    • Steve Davis says:

      As a former LDS Bishop, I can assure everyone that Sandra Hawkins believes that the Stick of Judah is greater than the Stick of Joseph and the Promised Land (USA)

      • fredwanson says:

        And we should care because . . . ?

      • Fred: Clearly because Sticks and stones….LOL
        Steve: Not that I want to start a conversation (I don’t), but Jesus was a Jew.

      • Steve Davis says:

        Everyone in the USA should care because of the Jewish Bankers are only fearful of the Christian Mormons, who believe in full-disclosure and the removal of the Modern Day Money-Changers…………an act done also by Jesus Christ, twice!

      • Steve Davis says:

        Jesus, as a Jew, fulfilled all the writings of the Old Testament. The Millennium is for the Stick of Joseph. The Jews coud have repented. Free Agency caused the United States of America, Land of the Stick of Joseph and the Law of Adoption (statement at the Cross)

      • fredwanson says:

        And it’s back ON! “Battle of the Soap Boxer Preachers Part Deux”

      • Hello Steve, I am not sure you understand what I believe on this matter, so let me set the record straight for all who will hear. I do not believe that the Stick of Judah is greater than the Stick of Joseph and the Promised Land (USA). What I do believe, is that this land of the USA is the Promised land of Joseph and that within Joseph, there is a Jewish Manasseh. I believe that the Corporate House of Judah is in the middle Eastern Eretz Israel and not in the USA, although some of them remain scattered in most nations. I believe that the House of Joseph has the Firstborn role to ingather, as mentioned in the Torah of HaShem at Deut. 32:21 and 33:17. I am blessed to have born in update New York and have spent most of my early childhood in the area nearby in Syracuse where the plates were discovered in Palmyra. As a child, I received a few visitations and saw great things and promises and the veil has been gradually lifted about those past occurances in recent years. One visitation I received was as a child collecting shells on Lake Ontario while camping with my family. I am truly blessed. I believe that the fulfillment of the law of Moses has to do with the return of the restored Melchizedek Priesthood that turned the temporal atonement given to Israel after the sin of the golden ox, to an eternal atonement among other things. Baruch HaShem! I believe that HaShem blinded Israel for a time and that Isaiah 29 expresses their future unblindedness which I believe will occur during the time of trial, when they find their beloved brother Joseph. I believe that after Israel is unblinded and receives the milk of the gospel from the House of Joseph, they will teach ‘greater things’ to the Gentiles in the church, who will need to receive those things unto their perfection and to move from their current betrothal to full marriage consumation. My interest is in the restoration of both houses of Israel as related in Ezekiel 37. I do not agree with all of your teachings, but I do agree with the core of the milk of the gospel and some of the things you share concerning the apostasy of the LDS church which I have taught since 1998 before I heard of you or your wife Karen. I love my free agency and believe that honest dialogue is the God given process of our growing together process as prophesied in the Book of Mormon. I have so much enjoyed my public journey to find truth among the family of Elohim throughout the years. I sincerely believe that my courage to stand with the Book of Mormon and take the great persecution among my Jewish family worldwide, has brought me great blessings. You may not know, but I stood with the Book of Mormon for over a decade, before HaShem decided to unblind me. Unblindedness does not come easy to the remnant of Jacob peoples who are bloodline Israel. It took much trial and study and prayer for this to happen. May you be blessed as you continue to seek the truths of Heavenly Father. Shalom, Sister Hawkins

    • Sharri Cook says:

      Sandra,
      I am personally acquainted with Steve and Karen Davis. I am a witness that they are truly called of God for the great work of the cleansing of the earth starting with His House first.

      I appreciate that you recognize that the LDS Church fell into apostasy to the present day, but you err mightily in your assumptions of your superior knowledge. You did not spent 78 hours face-to-face with God in Heaven as Steve Davis did and return without a veil with a perfect recollection.

      You have a veil just like the rest of us and see through a glass darkly! Your audacity in claiming that which is true to be false will earn you an unhappy outcome. I’m shocked at your false conclusions!

      • fredwanson says:

        @Sharri, I am acquainted with Karen Davis via Facebook and have seen the “fruit” that this burgeoning LDS splinter group that she and her husband appear to be intent on created based on his Near Death Experience on an operating table (you failed to mention that “little” part of the equation) produces – and I, like most people I know, couldn’t care less and am completely uninterested in their particular brand of fanaticism.

        Further, the Soap Box pontificating (or is the correct term “bludgeoning”) between Mr. Davis and Ms. Hawkins here over doctrinal gnat straining is certainly entertaining but in the end is off topic and has no real relevancy to the topic being discussed.

        May I politely suggest that you all take your “Soap Box Derby” elsewhere?

        Thanks.

      • Sharri Cook says:

        Fred, Your first comment on this topic was:
        “You’ll have to forgive my skepticism but what evidence you present that this is legitimate and not contrived?”

        You posted a second time:
        “Moderator – don’t bother approving my comment, I’ve received confirmation from at least two sources that I know that that part about this coming from Grant Palmer is true.

        Wait a few months and I believe you will want to retract your reply to my post.

        My comments on this blog are very on topic to this forum—The historical background for the current state of the LDS Church apostasy today is:
        Joseph Smith was foreordained and received the keys and gift of translation of the Book of Mormon and revelation for the restoration of Christ’s gospel and organization. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith failed to obey the Lord and followed his carnal desires (justified his sins by claiming a revelation of polygamy) and listened to the persuasions of men (lost the translation of the Book of Lehi, temporarily became a Mason until he was excommunicated, allowed Danites, counterfeiting, justified theft, returned to Nauvoo to his demise instead of fleeing to the Rocky Mountains, etc.).

        Joseph Smith had been protected up to this point and did not expect to die. He had not prepared for this outcome.

        Apostasy of 1944:
        The historical evidence is blatant that Brigham Young apostatized from the teachings of the Savior restored by Joseph Smith — BY denied the Atonement of Jesus Christ with his doctrine of blood atonement (He built an altar under the SLC Temple for future sacrifice that Christ had done away with). Brigham Young taught that killing Gentile men and women was no murder, “for theirs was not innocent blood. Apostates, and Saints of doubtful faith, and those who were obnoxious, had their blood shed—all for love—and that ‘cutting off’ was also no murder, because to secure their salvation by cutting their throats was an act of mercy.” Brigham said, “I know there are transgressors who, if they knew…the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course…I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sin…“Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise when they have a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood.’ Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant. ” Now, brethren and sisters, will you live your religion?“

        In Utah, BY kept the people in a virtual prison. Any disillusioned members attempting to escape were tracked down by his Danite warriors and murdered. BY ordered the Mountain Meadow Massacre — Read the words of repenting Danites who participated in the massacre: Bill Hickman’s Brigham’s Destroying Angel and John D. Lee’s Confessions. Fanny Stenhouse wrote: “Brigham Young was then Governor of Utah Territory, Commander-in-Chief of the Militia, and Indian Agent as well: —he was therefore responsible for all that took place within his jurisdiction. It was his duty to protect all law-abiding persons who either resided in or travelled through the country. The emigrants, so far from being protected, were ordered to break up their camp and move on; and it is said that written instructions were sent on before them, directing the people in the settlements through which they would have to pass to have no dealings with them.
        “A regular military council was held at Parowan, at which were present President Isaac C. Haight, the Mormon High-Priest of Southern Utah, Colonel Dame, Major John D. Lee, and the Apostle George A. Smith. No military council, whether of the militia or the ordinary troops of the line, would dare to determine upon such an important matter as the cutting off of an emigrant train of one hundred and thirty persons without receiving permission from superior authority. Brigham Young was in this case the superior authority — he was the Commander-in-Chief of the Militia: — the inference is obvious. The regiment which started from Cedar City under the command of Major John D. Lee, the sub-agent for Indian affairs in Southern Utah, was accompanied by baggage-wagons and the other paraphernalia of war… a large body of the Piede Indians had been invited to accompany them. “An order came from head-quarters to cut off the entire company except the little children…

        Early Mormon convert Fanny Stenhouse, in her book Tell It All, concludes: “Brigham is all-powerful in Mormondom; it is he who controls the affairs of the “Kingdom”…Brigham has a bitter hatred of Apostates and apostacy. The very name—”Apostate” —is the most cruel arrow in his quiver”
        “There have been many Apostates from the teachings of Joseph in early days, but, of all Apostates, Brother Brigham is the chief.”

        From Brigham Young to the present day, no Church president has set the Church in order in fulfillment of D&C 85:7 and D&C 86:1-7. The cleansing of the earth beginning with HIS HOUSE FIRST began August 11, 1999 when a whirlwind (tornado) hit downtown Temple Square in SLC in fulfillment of D&C 112:24-25.

        Most of the comments on this topic acknowledge that something is wrong with the Church and its history that is key to why the 15 apostles have largely lost their faith in the divine origins of the Church — the reason is that the Church is still in apostasy!

      • fredwanson says:

        @Sharri Cook
        Well I should have known better than to poke a hornet’s nest. My bad.

        Of course, all that presupposes that Joseph Smith, Jr. was a true (at least at the onset) Prophet and that his claims were (again, at least at the onset) legitimately from God.

        Since I don’t hold to this presupposition your words – and Steve Davis’s, and Karen Davis’s, and Sister Hawkins’s are lost on me and anyone else who don’t hold to this stance.

        So from this point onward I’m just going to let all you Soap Box Preachers screech, holler, and character assassinate each other over whose version of “the truth” and inspired vision of the future is really “true” and whose isn’t.

        Thanks.

      • Hi Sister Cook, I am happy for your witness of the work of Steve and Karen Davis. I just do not have a witness of it at this time. I do not feel I have superior knowledge. I believe that scripture is the place we go for truth. You are right, I did not spend 78 hours face to face with God in Heaven. I did however have a very spiritual experience at the John Johnson farm that I am very grateful for:

        http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-efrayim/my-mount-zion-salvific-experience/

        I agree that I do not know all truth. However, I can only teach that which I know is truth and wait to receive more revelation when it is revealed to me. I have an apologetic ministry and have answered teachings I do not agree with at my site. Please let me know what it is your disagree with:

        http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-efrayim/apologetics/answering-steve-karen-davis/

        Shalom! Shalom!
        Sis Hawkins

    • fredwanson says:

      UPDATE: Salt Lake City Attorney Ed Harris posted this in the closed Mormon Stories Facebook Group today. The content is interesting so I offer it for your consideration. Please take it for what it’s worth – yet more second hand hearsay.

      GRANT PALMER/GA INSIDER UPDATE
      I spoke with Grant this morning. Among other items we discussed:

      1. The Mormanity blog response to Grant’s info
      2. The reliability of the GA’s information
      3. New information soon to be published regarding Joseph Smith

      As to the Mormanity blog, Grant provided me with a response that soundly refuted or made irrelevant the blog’s claims. Unfortunately, Grant asked me not to share the details of this information because he wants to protect the privacy of the GA and Mission President. Suffice it to say, based on Grant’s personal response to me I am convinced of the truthfulness of Grant’s encounter with the GA and mission president as to the key facts disclosed. I recognize that this response has limited usefulness in verifying a story for public consumption and I am somewhat frustrated as many of you are.

      As to the reliability of the GA information regarding the $1 million dollar signing bonuses, Grant really took his time in weighing whether to release this info, knowing the seriousness of making this allegation. On multiple occasions he asked the GA regarding the accuracy of the source and the GA adamantly responded with “It’s a good source.”

      Grant did mention that he is critical of the GA’s statement that none of the top 15 believe that the church is true. A more accurate response would be that the top 15 come to know that the church is not what the average rank and file member thinks it is within a few years of being called to the Q12. Of course they figure out that Jesus does not meet with them during their Thursday temple meeting or that Jesus does not make an occasional appearance to President Monson in the Holy of Holies (or other overtly supernatural encounters), and that there is internal conflict in the quorum (sometimes irreconcilable), some or all of which may be at odds with what the average member believes. My thought and Grant’s thought on the matter is that each member of the top 15 has varying levels of belief based upon his own personal knowledge of church history and intuition, but that this shift in understanding from rank and file TBM status to a more nuanced belief or no belief, as the case may be, occurs within a few years after being called to the Q12 as reported by the GA. The GA reiterated to Grant the dominance of the senior half of the Q12 over the junior members including specific ways that they assert themselves over the junior members.

      Last, Grant spoke of the upcoming book to be released next year by historian Joseph Johnston (sp?) discussing strong evidence of Joseph Smith running counterfeiting operations out of his residence as well as other previously unreleased info on Joseph Smith and the Nauvoo period.

      I echo Grant’s sentiment that only the truth is good enough for the Mormon people considering the sacrifices that the rank and file make for the church. That said, I believe that sorting these matters out should be done in a responsible manner. Hopefully Grant’s disclosures will lead to other church officials coming forward sooner or later.

      • Steve Davis says:

        I joined this blog with specific information (from Howard W. Hunter, 1990 PPI while I was a BYU Bishop) about bribery and blood-oath secrecy obligations upon all members of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles since the days of Brigham Young.

        Sandra Hawkins joined this forum to discredit me, period. My sweetheart has already let Sister Hawkins what is moving forward about her actions. Let’s return to the topic and I can share 2012 hard core evidence and facts about the actions of various “modern-day money changers/D&C 64 false bishops, prophets/apostles” since the days of Brigham Young and generations of Mind Control and the worship of “money” and “control” of all temple attending LDS.

      • That sounds like a GREAT plan Steve! The topic here is the Grant Palmer memo and it’s contents.
        I say we leave the Soap Boxes, Sermon Notes, and off-topic personal agendas at home and stay on topic – deal?

      • Dear Fred,

        Thank you for posting Ed Harris’ response to the claims of the GA’s. I rejoice to hear that it is most likely that the leaders are not all saying that there was never any truth in the first principles of the gospel or Book of Mormon. This gives me alot of hope! The worst thing that could ever happen is the ‘Great Falling Away’ and we know it will happen, so I believe we need to FIGHT this as hard as possible, so that LESS souls fall away completely than would have. There are plenty of naysayers around us who want to spread their agenda to do away with the truth in the church altogether, due to the apostasy they see within. These naysayers have no light and we must distinguish between the messengers and shut down the dark ones completely. Teaching the truth of certain apostasy in the church without ‘balance’ is a deadly concoction that we all need to warn about as we are to be Ephraim watchpersons on the wall. There is right now a small remnant of Jacob [left of Joseph's coat] who know that they are supposed to lift their voices about the apostasy in ‘balance’, so that a remnant of the LDS church can move from betrothal to full marriage consummation in the Torah of Yeshua through a future restored Manasseh Native American remnant. The stone continues to roll forward and it does not get crushed by Rome. The remnant of Jacob removes all Roman/pagan influences in the LDS church [3 Nephi 21], causing much restoration with the Torah of HaShem, which allows the stone to continue rolling forward. It is an awesome work!

        Shalom! Sister Hawkins

  79. Steve,

    My purpose to join this blog is to warn of the last GREAT FALLING AWAY which I believe will occur at the hands of imbalanced LDS leaders who toss out the milk with the apostasy:

    http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-efrayim/apologetics/warning-about-the-great-falling-away/

    The fact that I disagree with some of your theological positions and share my interpretation of those, is part of my apologetic ministry. I also disagree with the Hebrew roots movement as well, as displayed here:

    http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-yehudah/hebrew-roots-apologetics/torah-order-of-the-restoration/

    If anything I teach from scriptures, exposes lies that is a good thing. If you feel discredited due to the truth of scriptures that I share, perhaps you ought to review your teachings. I don’t follow men. I follow scriptures, I follow Messiah, the author of truth.

    Shalom! Shalom!
    Sis Hawkins

  80. To the weak men in the Melchizedek Priesthood who are Misogynists ‘women haters’ who seek to uphold the ‘status quo’ of the apostate men in the LDS church:

    You might as well castrate yourselves, as your lack of power is being exposed by women of the remnant of Jacob among you who are not only NOT under your defunct powerless authority, but who will TREAD YOU DOWN completely. You had your chance to lift your voices and you failed. So now your choice is to repent or continue in your folly. This urgent voice of truth is coming from a female and if you bother me with false accusations, you will be cursed by the Elohim of Israel who defends me and has called me and set me apart to teach truth to a wayward assembly.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

  81. Another reply to the beligerant Robert Sinclair:

    You do not need to bring the teachings of Yeshua Messiah to a remnant of Jacob member who already has the milk of the gospel who now has a calling to take down the idolatry in the LDS church. You Gentiles in the church will need to begin listening to the remnant of Jacob among you. You lack respect for Israelites and are rather in an anti semitic attitude of pride. You are right, you have NO authority over me and your diligent labor to falsely accuse me has failed. You do not seek shalom, but rather to rail a pious daughter of Zion with false accusations who is courageous to teach truth to a wayward assembly. I do not seek for peace and harmony among apostates, but for the Word to come forth, to cause truth to surface and overcome the bad fruit. I will NOT listen to your version of scriptural interpretations, but instead, I will continue to follow Messiah who will soon come with a rod of iron and overcome the adversary who proposes that the sheep should shy away from speaking the truth in the last days for a fear of being ridiculed with false accusations as you have done. We are not to contend against the Torah. Your spirit is highly contentious as I am bringing forth truths you do not accept. Study the Torah Robert and stop pretending to teach me, as I do NOT accept your railing and mocking.

    • Robert Sinclair says:

      Dear Sister Hawkins,
      If I have come asross as putting you down or as one of pride or has had a lack of love for you I apologize. I do not as yet have this pure heart as taught in the scriptures and am aware of this. It sorrows me that I have offended you and that you feel that I am railing against you and mocking you. It was not in my heart to hurt you or upset you but I see that I have. Please forgive me as I in no way wish to stir up ill will which is the opposite of goodwill. Wo unto me for my sight is not yet clear enough to help you as I only wish to do. It is true that Jacob the father of Isreal had more than one wife and Abraham also had children with more than one wife. But that strife and envy were manifested in these relationships between the women and that a more peaceful and equal life might be established the people of Moses were commanded that any King in Isreal have only one wife. I am again sorry that you feel I am attacking you as I only sought to reason together with you of what the scriptures do teach. I am not pure in heart but do desire that one day I will be and that at such time may my responses be more enlighting and not darkening of the spirit. Again dear sister Hawkins please forgive me as to hurt you or mock you was not my intent. Sincerely your friend and brother Robert Sinclair

  82. This false theology being taught here by Robert Sinclair that ‘EVERYTHING that is happening in the LDS church is prophesied, so then WE THAT SEE IT, SHOULD NOT LIFT OUR VOICES OF WARNING because it appears contentious to ignorant Gentiles’, is an obnoxious attempt to shut the voices of the very remnant of Jacob in the last days among the saints to bring them from betrothal to full marriage consummation!

    The forces of evil will RAIL and MOCK the remnant of Jacob with false insinuations and accusations and they are mostly anti semitic GENTILES in the LDS church who will be CUT OFF for rejecting the ‘greater things’ from the remnant of Jacob. We are His voice and arms and feet and entire body here on earth. If we do not obey our callings, we waste our talents. I am an apologist with the truth and I have a voice and I will continue to use it, to tread down the beligerant Gentiles in my path. Study the Torah Robert and then you will learn what it means to be contentious towards the law because right now, you have NO CLUE and propose to teach when you ought to humble yourself and be taught. This is WHY tribulation is coming, inorder to humble the Gentiles to hear ‘greater things’ from a remnant of Jacob among them and to humble the Hebrews to accept the milk. God has NOT tossed out Israel! He has promised to remember them and boy oh boy when they awaken, you best listen to them! Stop boasting against the natural branches as if you are superior, as your only hope was due to their rejection of Messiah to begin with. You were ingrafted due to the mercy of Elohim and how much more then will be the greatness towards the remnant of Jacob when they awaken! Therefore, you need to learn instead of proposing to teach Israelites their own Torah. Heathens do not have the sceptre of Judah. They were given the milk to ingather Israel as the heathen Gentiles polluted the gospel and scattered us [Deut 32:21 read it!]. The LDS Gentiles are HEATHENS! They were called in their HEATHEN PAGAN status to ingather us, so that WE CAN TREAD YOU DOWN unless YOU repent for rejecting the ‘greater things’ we bring forth. You did the crime of polluting the gospel and so you had to restore us, as we Hebrews brought forth the gospel in purity in the first century and you Gentiles polluted it according to the Book of Mormon. So I am now ingathered and now I am to tell the truth about how YOU heathen Gentiles in the church who were given salvation ‘without the law’, are apostate, so that you can take hold of the ‘greater things’ of the eternal Torah that Yeshua taught TOWARDS YOUR PERFECTION. You need to stop doing pagan sun worshipping festivals like Christmas, Easter and Halloween and stop eating swine and unclean foods. You need to learn. You won’t be taught by your HEATHEN GENTILE LEADERS, as they do NOT have the sceptre of Judah! They are NOT BLOODLINE JUDAH! So get OFF your high GENTILE HEATHEN horse and stop boasting against the natural branches and falsely accusing me, when I have a calling and role to bring forth the Torah from Zion! If you think I’m combative, man oh man, are you in a world of hurt when Messiah returns.

    • Robert Sinclair says:

      Dear Sister Hawkins,
      I have many freinds that are Jews but none of them are like you. Wow are you not the wild one. I look forward to the return of the Messiah to see what he thinks of you with his great love. That I might see more clearly how to react to one such as you. I take it you do not forgive me but wish to tread me down. Wow what a ride in thought trying to figure you out and from whence you are called and exactly whom do you serve? Jesus commanded you to forgive me yet you only wish to tread me down. What think ye of those who would suffer death in the most distressing manner that could be inflicted upon them only to show great love in return? Yes what think ye of this one Jesus Christ?

  83. Another reply to Robert Sinclair:

    CEASE AND DESIST PREACHING TO ME AS IF I UPHOLD THE ABOMINATIONS OF POLYGAMY! I CONSIDER WHAT YOU ARE DOING AS A METHOD TO GET PEOPLE HERE TO THINK I TEACH POLYGAMY AND I DESIRE THAT YOU KNOW CLEARLY THAT I HAVE NEVER EVER TAUGHT POLYGAMY FOR TODAY!

    HEAR ME AND HEAR ME CLEARLY ROBERT! I HAVE NEVER EVER TAUGHT POLYGAMY FOR TODAY!

    IN ALL MY YEARS IN MINISTRY I REPEAT, I HAVE NEVER UPHELD POLYGAMY AS THE PERFECT WILL OF HASHEM!!! READ THIS:

    http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-efrayim/apologetics/answering-steve-karen-davis/sandra-hawkins-does-not-teach-polygamy/

    I CARE NOT TO HEAR A REPEAT OF WHAT YOU ARE LEARNING BY FALSE TEACHERS. I DO NOT KNOW WHO IS TEACHING YOU THESE THINGS, BUT I NEED NOT BE TAUGHT BY YOU!

    I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR VIEW OF STRIFE AND ENVY WITHIN POLYGAMIST RELATIONSHIPS IN THE PAST, PRESENT OR FUTURE, AS I ALREADY KNOW ABOUT THESE THINGS AND HAVE TAUGHT THESE TRUTHS FOR YEARS AND YEARS!

    My view is BALANCED! If HASHEM wills to bring forth a righteous seed HE WILL COMMAND POLYGAMY WHENEVER HE WANTS! THOSE WHO TEACH THAT HASHEM CAN NEVER COMMAND POLYGAMY WHEN HE DESIRES ARE FALSE INTEPRETERS AND ARE ALSO IGNORING THE REGULATION OF POLYGAMY IN THE TANAK AND IGNORING THE BOOK OF MORMON ON THIS MATTER WHERE HASHEM GIVES HIMSELF PERMISSION TO COMMAND IT IF AND WHEN HE WILLS. DAYENU ROBERT! DAYENU!

  84. To Robert Sinclair:

    You need not react to me, but rather STOP oppressing me with your false public accusations, as THAT is your main problem here. Yes I wish to tread you down, lest you repent as that is my calling. Just read your Book of Mormon and you will learn this truth. No, I do NOT forgive repeated railers as true teshuvah according to Torah is repairing wrongs and you’ve not done this but rather continue in your wrongs towards me while claiming you are sorry. You are not sorry. I forgive those who mock me due to NOT knowing what they are doing. You are in full control and knowledge of your overzealous bashing of myself here. You are a clear woman hater and oppressor of the remnant of Jacob, because in your heathen status, you do not understand my role. Your actions are not sorrowful, but a measured motive to continue belittling me with false accusations. I serve Messiah Yeshua and you serve the devil to rail against His remnant. So when you begin ‘serving up’ your obnoxious anti semitic attitude towards the remnant of Jacob among you by boasting against the natural branches which you have been warned NOT to do, you will be answered with hard words necessary for these wicked days. Just do teshuvah Robert. Don’t ask for forgiveness while continue to rail and mock at Zion. Oh and please do tell me who your Jewish friends are in the LDS church who have a Patriarchal blessing that confirms their Israelite heritage, as I do not see any of them lifting their voices about the apostasy in the LDS church and I’d like to ask them why they are wasting their talents. And if you are comparing me to Jewish friends of yours who have NOT the milk of the gospel, then there is no comparison because there is NO LIGHT in them. You are so filled with hatred towards me, the cat has your tongue, as I’ve exposed your folly and will continue to do so. Who died and made you King over the remnant of Jacob to suppose you may teach and rail at me? No one Robert. No one.

    • Robert Sinclair says:

      Dear Sister Hawkins,
      I do not hate you as you suppose and no my friends that are Jewish are not in the LDS church. I myself have not been in church for many years except to visit now and then. My belief is that the gospel that Jesus Christ has taught from Adam to Enoch who established the first city of Zion on this earth is where the people had all things common amoung them and had become pure in heart and had no poor amoung them. That Jesus Christ came to Moses and tried to teach these thing unto the people and through the prophets of old and that he came and in the book of Acts he set up his kingdom once more where they had all things common amoung them and the apostles had great power given unto them at that time. And again in the book of 3rd Nephi he also set up his followers that they had all things common amoung them and also great power given unto them. And again for this last time he had given unto Joseph Smith the law that no one is exempt from that would belong to his true chuurch that they also have all things common amoung them and be as one. What is your belief of this Zion of God?

  85. Well then see Robert Sinclair, you’ve decided to compare me to your unenlightened Jewish friends who do NOT have the gospel and therefore no role as the remnant of Jacob to share greater things and you propose to tell me that my urgent warning to the church leaders to repent before it is too late, inorder to save the souls of many from falling away, is forcing them when it absolutely is not force. Then after I chew you out, you admit you are inactive for many years and that the LDS church is only a social club for you to visit once in a blue moon. Additionally, we have been given the tithe, as a step to full ‘all things common’ which will occur when we are sufficiently humbled in the hour of trial. Though LDS leaders are apostate in some areas, they STILL have divine authority and time to repent UNTIL the END of the times of the Gentiles. We are not to pick and choose the things we disagree with as a reason to unaffiliated with the church. In fact, we are to lift our voices about those things that are unscriptural. This is what I am doing. Church is not a social club for me. I meet oft and tithe fully, because I believe God’s word that the remnant of Jacob will overcome the bad fruit in the mother tree. Thanks for sharing and shalom.

    • Robert Sinclair says:

      Dear Sister Hawkins,
      Thanks for the shalom. I view not my goings as a social club and I view your sounding of the alarm as is written the the book of the prophet Joel. You wish to awaken them and I am with you on that note. I have the law given unto me that I must also give to the poor and needy that are all around me. And not just a tithe but all my surplus property. I do not store up riches as others might but I freely give of that which I have. As I have stated before it is my belief that all that is required of the leaders of today is to acknowledge their offence as has been testified of by Hosea. And to return unto the lord with broken hearts and contrite spirits with fasting and prayer as the prophet Joel has testified. That they santify a fast and call a solemn assembly and do as the prophet Joel has testified that they should do. Yes I believe that if you truly labor to bring forth the good fruit that is equal and of one you too will be blessed and prospered and have great joy in that which you seek to do. May God bless you and help you in all the ways that I cannot as yet is my wish for you. And may peace in the end and goodwill be yours to have. Your friend and brother, Robert Sinclair

      • Robert, as long as your tithe is given to the LDS church you are good.
        As long as you are meeting oft to keep sacrament you are good.
        You are right, none of us are to have surplus property and I do not.
        NO rich man will EVER make it into His kingdom, as they are too busy managing their own mammon for their own fleshly goals. Yes the LDS leaders need to recognize their failings, but being an Israelite, I know how this feels. I had to realize I was without the milk and why that was, due to the sins of my fathers who taught me wrong. It was very humbling to come to the heathen no people as the Torah of Deut 32:21 states to receive the salvation I needed. This is HOW our beloved Joseph brings salvation to his family. Most will have too much pride to come to Joseph. On top of that, they will forget that Joseph was called in his ‘heathen no people’ status and will point at those characteristics as a reason NOT to ingather into his mikveh [which means gathering place]. HaShem is a righteous and fair judge. He knows exactly what he is doing. Be blessed!

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        Dear Sister Hawkins,
        I give to the poor that are around me and when at church I give to them. I had hoped to see the day that the leaders would acknowledge their offence and then I would return and meet together oft to partake of the sacrament with them and feel good about so doing. I had left in despair and loss of hope at first and begun to drink heavily and to say wake me when this nightmare is over. I would drink up to two fifths of vodka a day and wish to slumber continually only to wake up and find that things had remained the same. I still read all the scriptures I could finding great knowledge and wisdom if I would but follow it. Last year on yom kippor or tha Day of Atonement I decided that I myself should awake from slumber and cease from drinking altogether. My eyes have been opened once more but this time I was led to hope instead of despair and I began to understand the things that had been written by the prophet Zenos that his prophesies would be fullied and that the vineyard will again have fruit that are equal and be of one. And the eyes of my understanding began to be opened that there is also hope in the books of Hosea and Joel as well. And many of the writings of the prophets of old did I begin to understand further that their is much hope and blessings to have if I will but stay sober and continue to seek to prepare myself to see Christ face to face even as Moses or Joseph Smith. For the promises are there for all to have and it must need be that I also begin to fast and pray earnestly which thing I have yet to do. That I might have his spirit to be with me that I also might be of help and service to him in a far greater way than I have ever been. I do not understand everything about you but I sense that your desires are to help as well. I too wish to be blessed and that you will be blessed as well as we keep the commandments of Christ is my belief. Again peace be with you and the spirit of goodwill, your friend Robert Sinclair

  86. Wow John J. your theology is highly delusional. First of all, the sin of men do not automatically remove them from authority. Heavenly Father does that in His own good time. In other words, you don’t get to point at men in authority that you disagree with theologically and say they don’t have it anymore, as men fall and are forgiven and have opportunity to repent. Yes their Priesthood power is diminished, but they have time to repent due to mercy. LDS has UNTIL the END of the times of the Gentiles to repent and then judgement comes, which is the time of Jacob’s troubles.

    Secondly, Joseph Smith absolutely was a polygamist and a polyandrist as well. The Book of Mormon does NOT condemn the practice of polygamy, but condemns the unrighteous practice of it. If polygamy was evil, HaShem would have NEVER said in the Book of Mormon that He could command it, as HaShem does NOT sin. There is a HUGE difference and this is the problem when you allow GREEKS to interpret the scriptures. Joseph Smith could VERY WELL have been given the command to multiply wives for the purpose of raising righteous offspring. I was NOT THERE so I can not judge the matter, so how is it that you can? I have covered my views here:

    http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-efrayim/apologetics/answering-steve-karen-davis/sandra-hawkins-does-not-teach-polygamy/

    The true endowment ceremony is to teach the oracles of the Jews and this is why it is sacred. However, you are right, an infiltration of masonic rites was weaved in. But this also does not give YOU an excuse to say the LDS church is NOT the true church. Even Isaiah knows that the true church is still the true church when apostate! After Joseph’s murder, the council of the 12 ruled and that is it! You can not change that divine authority and railing on the failings of the leaders won’t remove that authority, as they have a timeframe to repent and we have not reached the end of the times of the Gentiles. So you ought NOT feel comfortable in your railing towards the LDS church as not being true, as it most certainly is. The LDS leaders have LONG known that it will be a remnant of Jacob that comes among them who lifts their voice and makes good changes.

    My personal experience with RLDS people is that they continually non stop rail towards LDS teachings when they themselves have NO OPERATION of the saving ordinances of the living for the dead! Holy MOLY!!!! HUGE problem there John. You can not save your ancestors who are pleading with you on the other side.

    And your rant about clinging to the Laws of Moses is far from a proper interpretation as well. The law of Moses that ended at the time of reformation my friend is the law of sin and death that gave a temporal atonement. The first century Gentiles actually worshipped on the 7th day in the synagogues to learn Torah. But what happened is that after the apostasy of Simon The Magus, the priesthood was removed from the earth and the Gentiles were given the gospel who ONLY HAD THE MILK and NOT the Torah! Gentiles do NOT rule with that which belongs to JUDAH, which is the sceptre. We will rule with that at the END of the times of the Gentiles and YES John J. we will be doing the holy days of Leviticus 23, we will be keeping all Sabbaths of Israel and we will eat clean foods. NO MORE PORK! All of this is confirmed in Isaiah and Zechariah and Ezekiel, which states that temple sacrifices will be reinstituted as Joseph Smith also taught.

    So you know NOTHING of the law to even speak of right now and in your beligerance towards the LDS church due to their sins, you pretend to know more and you are without the milk. There are NOT two true churches that are defunct. You don’t even belong to the true church at all to begin with. Sort of like the black kettle without salvation calling the pot black, which is HIGHLY hypocritical!

    Your message is highly anti semitic as well. You need to read Romans 11 about how when the corporate house of Judah rejected Messiah, that the gospel was given to the Gentiles to ingather the lost and that Israel will be unblinded at the END of the times of the Gentiles. Watch out, the Isaiah 29 marvelous work and wonder is upon completion and those natural branches are going to rule with the Torah amongst the Gentiles and this is how and why 3 Nephi 21 states we’ll clear out all pagan and heathen practices and priestcrafts, etc. It is going ot be a relentless pulverizing and this is INSIDE the LDS church….NOT NOT NOT the RLDS church or any other apostate offshoot.

    Jacob 5 also teaches that these natural branches WILL BE REMEMBERED! SO STOP BOASTING AGAINST THE NATURAL BRANCHES. The Jews were cut off, so that the Gentiles would be ingrafted. Those Gentiles polluted the gospel after the first century and is why they have to ingather. That is HARD WORK. They don’t get to rule with the Torah, as they are NOT Israel who was given the Torah to begin with.

    The Jewish religion did not come into being because of sin. Israel are chosen elect of HaShem. They worshipped the golden ox at Sinai and so the priesthood was removed and they were given a temporal atonement. See JST Deut 10 and Exodus 34. The eternal atonement was NOT restored until the time of reformation and this is why the dead raised when Yeshua died, as death could no longer hold their temporal atonement. What a jerk you are to say that the sins of Israel shoots holes in them being God’s chosen! That is just obnoxious and anti semitic stench! Who do you worship the god of the underworld who has no forgiveness? I worship a merciful Elohim who remembers His people and forgives them, as written all through scripture. Israel is NOT done! We saints are INGATHERING Israel and I am one of Israel who has been ingathered by the heathen no people of the Gentiles as Deut 32:21 states.

    There is a good reason why Joseph’s family did not go out west. They rejected polygamy! They simply took ONE doctrine that they disagreed with and used that to interpret that they never had authority and that is what ALL RLDS peoples do in their ignorance and pride.

    Additionally, blacks did not get the priesthood until 1978 for a VERY good reason. Women are given the priesthood in the endowment ceremony. Read this:

    http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-efrayim/apologetics/king-jehu-a-black-israelite/

    You are right, TRUE Mormonism does not exist right now, as it is the role of the remnant of Jacob to bring it back and set the house in order. But we’re NOT RLDS sonny boy! We’re LDS! You know what your problem is John? You are a legalist who neither understands the Torah or the order of the restoration that says clearly that HaShem is using a HEATHEN NO PEOPLE to provoke Israel to jealousy. HEATHEN MEANS HEATHEN. PAGAN MEANS PAGAN. God is telling Israel that because they went whoring as HEATHENS at Sinai, while He was giving them His pure commandments, that He was angry and jealous and so He is teaching Israel a lesson and making them go to the GOLDEN OX HEATHEN JOSEPH for restoration. But once we have humbled ourselves and understand these awesome truths, we now MUST set the assembly in order with our voices to overcome the heathen teachings in the church. We at this time have NO AUTHORITY over our Gentile LDS leaders. They have time to repent and we are to help our brothers see what is going on. We are and will be MOVING into a full Torah restoration. No one can stop it, as this stone is rolling forward and all those without the milk from the LDS church are in a MUCH more DANGEROUS position than the apostate members of the LDS church, as at least they have the milk and have ingathered a remnant of Jacob among them. Brigham Young prophesied that the leaders of the church would lead them astray until a remnant comes along to bring good fruit. Joseph Smith was murdered by masons for repenting of secret combinations. Brigham Young knew if he followed Joseph that he too would be murdered and so he relied upon the prophesied remnant of Jacob in these last days and we are doing just what we are supposed to be doing. We love our LDS leaders SO MUCH, we are calling them into repentance to help THEM, so they can help the rest of the flock. God is NOT done with the Gentiles NOR Israel and you are being tread down with the truth. Stop teaching John, your foot is in your mouth big time. Just repent and receive the milk of the gospel from the LDS church who is the only true Firstborn on earth at this time to deliver the milk. They are Isaiah’s Gentile Kings and Queens who nurse Israel and I am so thankful to have been nursed by them, even while I see some apostasy within. It will change!

    • John J. says:

      Whether you agree with what I say doesn’t mean I am misguided. Unlike your comments, mine are based on scripture verse and other actual references. I don’t make up names like HaShem or pretend to be God’s Chosen. I’m not anti anyone. I just present the information that is available based on common sense. You say their priesthood power is diminished. How is that different in ideology than, “amen to the priesthood and authority of that man”? You either have it or you don’t. Can I get an “amen”? LOL I’m sorry my comments threaten what you think is your right and calling to apply ointments and salves on the blood atonement scares of the Brighamites. I will not sit idly by while Brother Joseph’s good name is slandered and libeled by those pretending to know the truth about the early history of the LDS church or to understand his motives or what was commanded of him.

      D&C 132:7 …”(and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred)”

      What is it about the meaning of ONE that is hard to understand? One is NOT a quorum of 12. That is why Joseph Smith, Jr. never ordained any of the original LDS 12 apostles. He left their selection and ordinations to other men, because he knew he was the only ONE with the power and keys of the priesthood. His power and keys were contingent upon knowledge.

      D&C 84:19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.
      D&C 128:11 …”For him to whom these keys are given there is no difficulty in obtaining a knowledge of facts”… 14 …”the keys of the kingdom, which consist in the key of knowledge.”

      The LDS Book of Abraham describes a counterfeit priesthood established in Egypt by Pharaoh, “seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations”. “it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.” If you pay close attention to the architecture in Temple Square in Downtown SLC you might notice lots of things associated with Egypt. There is an obelisk out front of the Conference Center that is a phallic symbol that also represents the patriarchal order that runs the LDS Church. There are pyramids atop the roof of the Conference Center that are directly above the pulpit. The spires atop the Salt Lake Temple are also pyramidal. In its baptistery are 12 gold ox/calves patterned after the golden Apis Bull – a fertility god in Egypt. Of course, a people that embrace the practice of polygamy would use such symbolism.

      Joseph Smith never told the people even a hundreth part of what was revealed to him by the being commonly known as Jesus (the proper English translation to Yeshua being Joshua! Hence, Joshua led the Israelites into the “Promised Land” not Moses and his 613 laws). Yes, it was only Jesus that appeared him. There were @ 11 different accounts of what is referred to as The First Vision. It wasn’t a vision; it was an actual visitation. In some of the accounts, only the Son appears to him, in others the Father and the Son and others an angel. The Temple Endowment points to who visited him because in it the Father always delegates to others to go down and return and report.

      The Book of Mormon DOES condemn the practice of polygamy. Do you have eyes that see?
      Jacob 2:26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old. 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
      Mosiah 11:2 2 For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness.
      The “sealings” that took place between Joseph and others where NOT marriages or sexual unions anymore than Catholic Nuns are married to Jesus, even thought they wear a wedding band to signify such. Joseph was sealed to men, women and couples. Are you going to suggest he was bi-sexual too? LOL! The practice of polygamy was introduced to the early saints by Cochranites that converted to the new religion. How do know I wasn’t there? Unknown to most is that Joseph taught the principle of reincarnation/multiple probations to his closest friends, (those that would not rise up and kill him). One of the people he taught this was Eliza R. Snow, to whom he was “sealed”. She played the role of Eve in the very first presentation of the Endowment.
      June 8, 1889 – Apostle Lorenzo Snow says “his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith, was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received if from the Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, it it came from the Lord or His oracle.”
      These Sealings represented the eternal bonds of friendship we established in the Primordial Existence before we came to Earth to gain experience in mortal bodies. Some with close ties to Servants of Humanity agreed to incarnate in supportive roles to these servants. Many of us were our own ancestors; therefore, work for the dead is futile. In fact, one of the verses the LDS Church bases the doctrine on was re-translated by Joseph. Its corrected translation has absolutely nothing to do with temple work for the dead.
      JST Hebrews 11:40 “God having provided some better things for them through their sufferings, for without sufferings they could not be made perfect.”
      These “sufferings” are multiple probations. One verse in the New Testament mentions someone inquiring as to whether someones physical ailment was the result of a sin in a past life. The BOM also mentions rising a second or third time. D&C Section 137 states Alvin Smith received a Celestial inheritance without having any proxy ordinances perform on his behalf. Lastly, John 17:4 states Jesus had finished the work given to Him by the Father prior to being crucified. Therefore, preaching to the spirits in prison would have been a continuation of work that He had already finished. The practice of baptisms for the dead was introduced to the early saints by those who had converted from the Catholic Apostolic religion.
      The Endowment has NOTHING the oracles of Jacob. Joseph was the oracle, who hid its meanings in allegory because the people couldn’t handle the truth. Here is the real Marvelous Work and a Wonder! http://marvelousworkandawonder.com/sns/index.htm You also seem to be unfamiliar with Isaiah’s (one of Joseph’s previous incarnations, which is why he quotes so much in the BOM) “railings” about organized religion. It’s in the very first chapter, so you don’t miss it!
      11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations (outward ordinances); incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies (conferences), I cannot away with it; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting (devotionals). 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts (ward dinners) my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood (blood atonement/Danite doctrines – Ether 8:19).
      Still think reinstating blood sacrifices is an act of righteousness? Just like with the practice of polygamy, if Joseph would have taught work for the dead was pertinent to anyone’s salvation, the RLDS established by his surviving family members surely would have made it doctrine. But as I have already pointed out in with 3 scriptural witnesses, it has no part in salvation. There is good reason the Kirtland Temple did not have a baptismal font or rooms for performing ordinances. All that stuff evolved later as Joseph allowed the people to create a church based on the desires of their hearts, after they had rejected the Higher Law for the Laws of Moses. The BOM is replete with verses “railing” against the insignificance of the Laws of Moses, so don’t get upset at me for the “most correct” book says. There is good reason Jesus went off and groaned within Himself because even though He had just taught the fullness of His Gospel to those at Bountiful, they inquired as to why He did not make mention of the Laws of Moses. This “wickedness” troubled him. It is obvious what made them wicked in His eyes…they had rejected the same Sermon on the Mount He had delivered to those in the Eastern Hemisphere.
      As far as your blacks and the priesthood theory, that is easily dispelled by doing a little proper research. Elijah Abel, a freed slave was ordained in 1836! Simon, one of the original apostles in the New Testament was a Canaanite (Matthew 10:4). Likewise, Jesus’ lineage from his mother’s side also contained a Canaanite, so if you believe the Brighamite crap about having even one drop of Negro blood you better reboot, else you deny Jesus the right to His own priesthood. Common sense also dictates that if the color had anything to do with someone holding the priesthood, then Samuel, the Lamanite would have not been able to fulfill his prophetic role. He and Abinadi were not the presiding priesthood authorities in the church, yet they were commanded to call it to repentance. Explain that one apologists.

      Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
      1 Nephi 14:10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

      The name of the church in 1830 was the Church of Christ (D&C 20:1) then for some apostate reason it changed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in 1838 (D&C 115:4), the same year a false version of the First Vision was made “official”. Why would it take so long to come out with an “official” version if that was the entire religion was based. Was it because they had to choose which version they thought was true? The meaning of “church” has nothing to do with an organized religion. A more appropriate definition is “ideology.” In the correct sense, the word “church” used in the scriptures means a closely organized system of beliefs, values, and ideas forming the basis of a social, economic, or political philosophy or program. It consists of a set of beliefs, values, and opinions that shapes the way a person or a group such as a social class thinks, acts, and understands the world. In our world there are only two basic ideologies. One is based on the accumulation of money and investments, checking and savings accounts, expensive clothing and name-brand linen, and all manner of precious clothing; cars and houses, and all manner of material goods; education, degrees, and pride in succeeding in the world. (1 Nephi 13:4–9) The other ideology is based on the attitude of having a stress-free life of peace and happiness, i.e. “heaven on earth,” thus fulfilling the measure of our creation in experiencing joy. Thus the ideology of the Lamb of God is described by “the Lamb of God” (Matthew 6:19–21) The clue to confirm that there was no actual “church” or religion, and that the term was used to denote a group of people who followed Christ, is given in what Mormon reveals about the people being “called the church of Christ” [compare 3 Nephi 26:21 & D&C 20:1], but then later, “there [were] disputations among the people concerning” what they should call their church.” [Compare 3 Nephi 27:3 & D&C 115:4]

      Shalom. : )

      • Well John, you are not a member of the one true church, so you would not have the gift of the comforter to understand spiritual things. My commentary is absolutely based on scriptures, but you do not have the light according to scriptures and is why you do not understand what I write. Stop complaining about that and join the TRUE church that has some apostasy and work from within to bring good fruit. That is the ONLY scriptural way it will change for the better according to Jacob 5.

        Additionally, the word HaShem is THE NAME in Hebrew referring to the tetragrammaton, which is translated as Jehovah in the Book of Mormon. The sacred name has NOT yet been restored according to prophecy, as the two houses of Ezekiel 37:19 are not yet in unity, so we do not use the tetragrammaton. Please see:

        http://www.latterdayisrael.com/twohousesgrowingtogether/when-does-the-sacred-name-get-restored/

        What is it that I’ve taught that you believe is not scriptural. Name them with numbers please.

        Your comments do not threaten me at all, as I have the milk of the gospel and you don’t, due to your legalistic and erroneous exegisis. You simply believe that when a man sins, he has lost it altogether. That defies the mercy of HaShem in scriptures which includes judgement, repentance and restoration.

        Section 121:37 is not about the priesthood of all in the LDS church being removed, but is singled out toward individual holders.

        And no I do not apply any ointments or salves on the blood atonement doctrines, but speak against it. Don’t drash dirty with me John, as I’ll expose all of your LIES towards what I believe right here. This is a common tactic of those who deal with me to intentionally mischaracterize what it is I believe. Just be honest. If you do NOT know what it is I believe, do NOT make false assumptions and start railing at me with beliefs I’ve never taught. Instead, take the time to read my site: http://LatterDayIsrael.com
        John, are you saying that you interpret Joseph Smith’s keys to the priesthood and his later murder, that the restoration ended and no one else had the priesthood anymore? If so, that is sorely without prophecy of the restoration from most of the prophets including Isaiah, Jeremiah and the Torah concerning consecration:

        Ex. 28:41
        consecrate them … that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office .

        I do understand the word ONE John, but you do not understand the scriptures, as even Yeshua gave divine semitcha to his disciples, so you are trying to change history to state Joseph Smith NEVER did bestow power and authority over the 12:

        Luke 9:1 Then he called his atwelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

        See: http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smith-and-doctrinal-restoration/23-calling-twelve-apostles-and-seventy-1835

        Joseph Smith did not leave their selection and ordinations to other men. He took care of it himself, which is recorded in history.

        The LDS priesthood is not counterfeit according to Isaiah. However, they have some precepts of men that are not true. You sound like some in the Hebrew roots community who say things like this: ‘since Jesus is the branch and so was Tammuz, then Jesus must be Tammuz’. Of course that is an ill formed exegisis by those who can not weigh matters with equal weights and measures.

        John, Sefer Avraham describes a TRUE priesthood gone bad. In fact Avraham was anointed into the TRUE priesthood by his fathers and instead of corrupting it as his fathers did, he went STRAIGHT. I have completed a Sefer Avraham translation and it is a WARNING to LDS priests in the last days, NOT to partake of SUN worship as they are now doing. I am pleasantly surprised that you believe Sefer Avraham is a true writing, as indeed it is. Judgement will come and some will repent and this is how we achieve restoration. We warn, judgement comes and some repent.

        John, the baptistry in the LDS church is designed after the law of God wherein the large basin on the backs of twelve oxen came from the description of Solomon’s temple in the Tanak at I Kings 7:25 and 2 Chronicles 4:1-4. PLEASE read it.
        John, in Jewish exegisis there are rules we follow like who is speaking and who is being spoken to. Who is God speaking to in Jacob 2:26? The Nephites! The Nephites are descendants of the JEWS:

        2 Nephi 30:4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.

        The Gentiles who were given the writing to uncover and publish are NOT the Jews. Therefore IF God wills, HE MAY will polygamy to raise up righteous offspring PERIOD DOT END. You do NOT get to instruct God John. God instructs us through His Word.
        Polygamy is not forbidden by the Torah. Rather, Torah regulates the practice of polygamy. I believe polygamy violates the perfect will of HaShem concerning the foundation of creation wherein a male and female will cleave together after the husband leaves his parents and cleaves to his wife as they become one. [Gen 1:27, 2:24].

        Was Polygamy ever commanded to Joseph Smith? I can not say for 100% certain as I was not there, but if it was commanded, here is how and why:

        Jacob 2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up a seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

        Right there at Jacob 2:30, HaShem gives Himself permission to command polygamy! Now if someone wants to CONTROL HaShem and tell Him He can not, that is up to their free agency.

        Most do not realize that the Book of Mormon was written BY JEWS and according to Torah, no Jewish ruler was to take more than one wife that was NOT given to them by HaShem. This would protect them from straying into idolatry, as foreign wives would lure their husbands into idolatry, as happened with Solomon who was led astray.
        This Torah instruction did NOT apply to Gentiles. In fact, the primitive assembly in the first century was populated by many many Gentile polygamous families.
        The Book of Mormon was written by Jews and given to the Gentiles to publish, along with last days life saving revelations of the milk of the gospel ONLY. The majority of Gentiles in the LDS church are NOT bloodline Israel remnant of Jacob.
        So then WHY could Hashem ‘WILL’ to ‘raise up a seed’ in the last days among the Gentiles? Why could HaShem have commanded Joseph Smith to take on more than one wife?

        That is simple to understand if your mind will bear it.
It is because He gave the gospel to the Gentiles who scattered Israel and polluted the gospel and desires to use the Gentiles ‘without the law’ to regather and bring forth truth. Without enough Gentiles present to answer this important last days calling, there would be no missionaries with the milk.

        The very truth these Gentiles would bring would be life saving nourishment to the Jews and lost tribes for which I am eternally grateful.
        Did Joseph Smith abuse the priviledge that HaShem may have given him? I believe history records that he did take wives that belonged to other husbands. Did King David sin in a like manner? Yes! Did Solomon? Yes! Does HaShem HATE the practice of unrighteous polygamy and polyandry and the sort! YES, as it is an abomination. But is it an abomination to obey the command to ‘raise up a seed’ in the last days for the purpose of restoration? Scriptures are clear that HaShem has a right to declare a right to raise up righteous seed unto Himself.

        Read what you wrote again. See Jacob 2:26 where it says ‘I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old’. What did they do? It was the WHOREDOMS in connection with polygamy that God did not approve of. They took wives NOT given them, divorced wives with little to no excuse and allowed their wives to teach them idolatry! Heavenly Father wanted to protect the Nephites from those things, so he told them not to take on more than one wife. It was NOT the literal practice of polygamy that God was saying was EVIL, it was the WAY they were practicing it.

        Again, I am NOT saying the MANNER in which Joseph Smith practiced polygamy was right, but rather, it was WRONG and in this, he fell into sin.

        The work for the dead is not only NOT futile John, but really is the work of the Elijah ministry in these last days, welding the hearts of the Fathers to their children and children to their fathers. Section 137 does not say that Alvin would never receive a proxy immersion. The thief on the stake alongside Yeshua also went to paradise that day and would later receive that work. His belief was all that mattered. We are taught truths we missed here on earth.

        D&C Section 137 does NOT state that Alvin Smith received a Celestial inheritance without having any proxy ordinances perform on his behalf! See verse 6:
        “And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.”

        Rather, Alvin departed life BEFORE he was baptized on earth. The passage does NOT say that Alvin did not receive this proxy immersion in the hereafter!
        John, you are preaching to me that after the death of Yeshua on the stake, that His work was finished for eternity according to your interpretation of John 17:4. Wow! So salvation to all those who perish without the law of God are now trapped in your Ishtarian ‘death and hades’ trap. That’s Babylon John and you need to come out of Babylon. See:

        http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-yehudah/overcoming-the-harlot-of-babylon/

        I am going to destroy that Ishtar belief, so if you are still riding with that false belief when Manasseh has authority, you better run or repent.

        Furthermore, this verse here at Jacob 4:14 is NOT about LDS Gentiles! It is about ISRAEL [see Isaiah 1:1 below]:

        “But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.” (Jacob 4:14)

        Again John, Isaiah 1:11 is addressed concerning JUDAH:

        The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
        They were bringing their oblations without FAITH in the coming one!
        Read Ezekiel chapters 40-48 John, about the reestablishment of the sacrificial system in the millennial temple, which Joseph Smith taught accurately.
        This does not affirm the blood atonement doctrine of Brigham Young. You must learn how to weigh matters with equal weights and measures and if you do not study the Torah of HaShem you will be without that guidance. Shalom!

      • John J. says:

        Sorry, but I don’t need to be a member of a religion and the reason I know this is due to my light according to what is written in scripture. My witnesses are these because I have eyes that see:

        Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
        1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
        Moroni 7:16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
        D&C 22: 1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning. 2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works

        Sorry, I don’t buy into tetragrammations or Masonic Magic Squares. The Lord worketh in plainness and not pretended mysteries! I do NOT believe in “sin”. I know that man is meant to govern themselves, thus Joseph Smith is reported saying, “I teach them so they might govern themselves”. The problem was they could not handle the truth, nor did they want to govern themselves. They wanted to be God’s Chosen People like the Jews, which is why they insisted a church based upon the tenets in the Bible be established rather than the United Order. http://www.marvelousworkandawonder.com/tsp/download/JewishLDSParallels.pdf These parallels leave no doubt as to who the latter-day Jews are, so Jacob 4:14 does addresses the LDS for whom the BOM was written and who are to liken its passages unto themselves because it is about them.

        Read a little further and you will learn a lot about the disposition of almost all men:
        D&C 121:39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. 40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

        The few that are chosen are the singular true messengers on earth at any one time (D&C 132:7 ..” there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred”). What redeemed the Brother of Jared from the fall wasn’t membership in religion or the performance of any rituals. Just like Moses and Joseph Smith, he learned the true nature of God by having a face-to-face meeting. Only true messengers are granted these visitations in mortality. The reason for this to keep the message pure and void of the philosophies of men that have led to the thousands of different creeds within Christianity alone. Where in the BOM is the religion of the Jaredites described? Like the Jews prior to being freed by Pharaoh, they did not have one and since Mahonri was able to be redeemed from the fall by having the veil of unbelief rent without a religious affiliation, it is clear as to the insignificance religious law. Likewise, where in His address to those at Bountiful did Jesus mention priesthood, temple worship, ordinances or any other part of religion to be required of them? Jesus declared in the Bible that Elias/John the Baptist had already restored all things, so what is the Joseph restored? Did he re-restore? LOL
        Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
        JST Matthew 17:10 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things, as the prophets have written. 11 And again I say unto you that Elias has come already, concerning whom it is written, Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and they knew him not, and have done unto him, whatsoever they listed. 12 Likewise shall also the Son of Man suffer of them. 13 But I say unto you, Who is Elias? Behold, this is Elias, whom I send to prepare the way before me. 14 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist, and also of another who should come and restore all things, as it is written by the prophets.
        Believe what you will about the RLDS/Community of Christ but at least they use the Inspires Version of the Bible unlike the LDS in SLC, who claim to revere Joseph Smith as the prophet of the restoration, while rejecting the restored passages. The proof that the saints couldn’t handle anything other than what they already accepted as truth is that some of the verses corrected in the JST/Inspired version of the Bible were left untouched when they were quoted in the BOM. Surely, the Urim & Thummim would not give differing interpretations to the same verse!
        Another thing people fail to consider is if Joseph restored the fullness then what purpose does the 2/3 sealed portion of the gold plates serve? Will they make a full glass even more full? LOL IF you ever read the Book of Lehi, you would understand why it was important for it to be lost or excluded from the BOM. It was already known how well the “saints” would receive the message of equality in the Book of Mormon.
        In September of 1832, Joseph Smith revealed that the whole church was under condemnation. Among the reasons for this condemnation was because the people weren’t reading and heeding the Book of Mormon and its teachings?

        D&C 84:54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received— 55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. 56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— 58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
        There is no mention in any other D&C section that this condemnation has been lifted. Ezra Taft Benson, LDS Church President from 1985-1994, also acknowledged this condemnation, and stated that it was still under effect (see Benson, Ezra Taft. “Cleansing the Inner Vessel.” Ensign. May 1986. 4-7). See also D&C 105:3-4.

        Benson’s predecessor Spencer W. Kimball was aware of this condemnation when he said: “I have had many people ask me through the years, ‘When do you think we will get the balance of the Book of Mormon records?’ And I have said, ‘How many in the congregation would like to read the sealed portion of the plates?’ And almost always there is a 100-percent response. And then I ask the same congregation, ‘How many of you have read the part that has been opened to us?’ And there are many who have not read the Book of Mormon, the unsealed portion. We are quite often looking for the spectacular, the unobtainable. I have found many people who want to live the higher laws when they do not live the lower laws” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 531–32).
        Alma 12:9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. 10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. 11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.
        2 Nephi 27:7 And behold the book shall be sealed; and in the book shall be a revelation from God, from the beginning of the world to the ending thereof. 8 Wherefore, because of the things which are sealed up, the things which are sealed shall not be delivered in the day of the wickedness and abominations of the people. Wherefore the book shall be kept from them. [According to this verse, the sealed portion of the BOM could NOT possibly come through the LDS church because if they weren’t in a wicked state they Sealed Portion would have come forth from their leaders. The fact that they do not have the sealed portion proves the state they are in.] 9 But the book shall be delivered unto a man, [Joseph Smith, Jr.] and he shall deliver the words of the book, which are the words of those who have slumbered in the dust, and he shall deliver these words unto another; 11And the day cometh that the words of the book which were sealed shall be read upon the house tops; [published for free download over the Internet and made available to all as God is no respecter of persons.] and they shall be read by the power of Christ; and all things shall be revealed unto the children of men which ever have been among the children of men, and which ever will be even unto the end of the earth.21 Touch not the things which are sealed, for I will bring them forth in mine own due time; for I will show unto the children of men that I am able to do mine own work. [I don’t need missionaries to declare my message to the world] 23 For behold, I am God; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith. 24And again it shall come to pass that the Lord shall say unto him that shall read the words that shall be delivered him:25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men— 26 Therefore, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, yea, a marvelous work and a wonder, [see also Isaiah 29:14] for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid.
        But who is this other man that Joseph shall deliver the gold plates to? One man is not a presidency or quorum or men. In fact, Thomas Monson is not the senior apostle upon the earth, John – the Beloved and the Three Nephites are.
        Apparently, one of Benson’s successors was also aware of the lack of heed and diligence given to the “keystone” of their religion when in late summer of 2005, Gordon B. Hinckley challenged the members to read the Book or Mormon under the auspice of “honoring Joseph Smith’s 200th birthday.” I believe Hinckley’s ulterior motive was he thought this might force God’s hand as far as the coming forth of the sealed portion of the gold plates that Joseph Smith did not translate. What was lost in this challenge was that just merely reading the words did not give heed and diligence to the messages in the BOM. I believe Hinckley was attempting to disprove the translation and claims made by Christopher Marc Nemelka, who had published the Sealed Portion http://marvelousworkandawonder.com/tsp/index.htm on the Internet just months earlier, as the LDS Church believes the translation must come through their leaders. For some reason he did not believe or understand what was written in the “keystone” of the religion he led.
        3 Nephi 21:9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
        You know nothing about how the LDS Priesthood came into being. The truth is revealed by the Marvelous Work and a Wonder: http://marvelousworkandawonder.com/js/download/LDS_Priesthood_Unveiled.pdf
        All I can say about your inability to deal with cognitive dissonance is – WOW! Your deliberate misinterpretations of what is written in plainness is the very epitome of the corruption that has taken hold of the “saints”. Like Jacob of old, I bid you adieu. Bet you don’t know why a French word was used to end the Book of Jacob. Remember, you can’t spell Shalom without LMAO. : )

  87. Dear Robert Sinclair. I understand your heartache. Please try to remember that the wheat are with the tares. This causes us to be grieved while worshipping with evil doers. But what causes the parable Zenos to come alive, is that we submit ourselves to the body of Messiah with our voice in grief. If we leave the assembly prematurely based on their failure in one are of doctrine or another, we remove our body part from the body that needs us. This is how we change things. We bring our good fruit to the Mother Tree. When you publically write that you are grieved due to a non ‘all things common’ church, you are expressing your voice of dismay. Hopefully your words will be read by church leaders here, which will move them towards that upright ordinance as well. The fact that you began drinking to console yourself is no different than using food or any other distraction to soothe your holy pain. I’m glad you realized that, as it is not the best way, as it actually chases away the Ruach, instead of bringing in more of an anointing. But we all fail at times. You are right as well with the need for us to fast and pray. That is such a timely word for all of us! Ancients did this from sunrise to sunset and reclined in the evening with a meal. I believe you will be of great service if you will return to the body, tithe as the church requires and give more on the side, but don’t remove your tithe from the church and use your grief to cause you to lift your voice. I hope some day I can meet you and your family. Shalom and be well.

    • Robert Sinclair says:

      Dear Sister Hawkins,
      Your council to come back to the wayward assembly and help is of great value to me as I know this would greatly please my mother who loves the church and it’s leaders with all her heart. My fear is of myself. For I had one of my sons Jared read yours and my comments back and forth and he could see right away my words would anger you and upset you while I could not. And he said it was in the way I presented my thoughts that were not pure in heart as I would wish that I could be.
      He knows of my love for others but also of my errors in judgment and comments that may offend for someone who understands me not and of my desires to help. I trying to say the things I have said about my beliefs that because of the rejection of ” all things in common” by todays leaders that the lord has hid his face from them as is written in the scriptures has cause some members to rise up in anger against me and as the were raising their hand to cast satan out of me their children were kicking me in the shins and throwing dirt on me. I saw this as a type and a shadow of things to come if I were to continue my conversations in this manner. So I would say unto myself I need to escape from this venom and need to go to sleep until things change. And I would go and drink until I would pass out and slumber my life away. Even as you became angry with me and wished to tread me down I felt I was lucky to not be in your presence so also do I feel that others may still rise up in anger against me to hurt me and to harm me when I myself wish no harm to them and only because I am not yet right and pure in heart. So the time is not yet for me to come back but may soon be. I myself love the brothers and sisters of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints but feel much safer doing it from a distance at present. I am not yet ready to suffer death in the most aggravating and distressing manner that can be inflicted upon me and only show great love and forgivness in return. so it must needs be that I find the time away from the yoke of mundane matters to fast and to pray as was done in past times by others. And when I am prepared and ready to die if need be by someone who misunderstands me I will be ready if called upon to do it with love out of a pure heart. But again you are right if I do believe that Jesus Christ set up his gospel once more with these people and is in need of laborers to enter in and help I should enter back in and help. And another thing that frightens me about you and causes me concern is that you do not mention the name of Jesus Christ and although you mention his name as used in the Torah for some reason that I do not quite yet see the name Jesus Christ as used by so many as the words to feast upon I do not hear from you and I understand not why this is so. Is it against your beliefs to mention the name of Jesus Christ? This concerns me as I do not understand why. Will you please enlighten me as to why that is that I may no longer have worries and concerns as to why that is? Thank you and please understand I am still seeking as to why some things are the way they are, So know that I am knocking and hope that you will open unto me that I might come to understand why that is. I hope to hear from you about this matter as it causes me to wonder greatly.
      Your friend and brother Robert Sinclair

      • Dear Robert, the name Jesus Christ is the English version of His name. It was translated this way, as the English speaking people do not know His Hebrew name. Heavenly Father decided to speak to the Northern Kingdom in the language they could best understand Him in. I use the name Jesus Christ and because I learned his Hebrew name years ago and teach to the Hebrew audience, I use Yeshua or Yahushua Messiah. Messiah is another word for Christ. It is the same person. You know how Paul taught to the Jews in their way of understanding, is what I do for my Jewish family, inorder to lead them into the saving grace and atonement of our very Jesus Christ. I am glad that you are considering returning to the LDS church to be a labourer in these last hours. Treading down only means confounding false doctrines. We need priesthood members as yourself who are grieving in spirit over the apostasy of the LDS church who are willing to lay down their fleshly needs for appreciation among others, inorder to lead others into more perfect light. May the God of Israel strengthen you to know that you are worthy and were called in these last days to be a light in the darkness. Shalom, sis Hawkins

  88. Hello all, we LDS have not lost it all! We still have the most important life saving truths for our Hebrew family to receive in the future when they are completely unblinded as Isaiah 29 has said. The stone is going to continue rolling forward. However, great judgement is coming to be a sift and for a test. My recommend would be to attend sacrament oft, pay tithe and keep the Word of Wisdom [although I fail at that last one at times myself]. If you can not stand to stay for the other two meetings, then don’t. I realize how annoying it is myself to sit there with blinded Mormons who do not think. It seems practically useless to correct the many institute manuals made by blind ones. But you can correct for one or two Sundays during Gospel doctrine and when your warning is done and they do not listen, do not attend those particular meetings. We can warn in creative ways in balance while keeping our body parts inside the body UNTIL we are forced out by the strong armed porters. Brigham Young said that those who lift their voices would end up in a little boat with our first captain [Jesus Christ], while the Good Ship Zion continues to go off in the wrong direction. We can not correct the entire church! Only a remnant will be saved, like in the days of Noah. So then, we have nothing to be afraid of. It’s time to put your western cowboy boots on and get ready for the last ingathering of the Hebrews among the Native Americans, who will set that cornerstone to the New Jerusalem. We have much to celebrate, as the light is not extinguished!

    http://www.latterdayisrael.com/stick-of-efrayim/apologetics/warning-about-the-great-falling-away/

  89. Brigham Young KNEW that there were evil machinations weaved into the church. He knew if he exposed them, he too would be martyred. You know what? Joseph Smith gave the keys to the political kingdom to the illuminate! This is WHY our government has devlish control over us. They have a form of the Melchizedek Priesthood and are using it in unrighteous ways. They have no true democracy, but rather a socialist agenda of adversarial control over the rights of liberty bestowed upon us. But this is judgement to the LDS church as cleaning house starts at home. Brigham Young spoke alot about the remnant of Jacob in the last days. He knew the LDS church would NEVER flourish with the Gentiles, due to apostasy within and knew that it would take a Jewish Manasseh remnant to set the assembly in order. Jacob 5 is really the key. This incoming remnant of Jacob brings so much juicy good fruit onto the mother tree, that the bad fruit just has to drop off the tree due to rottenness. The remnant of Jacob among the saints in the last days throw down the apostasy in the LDS church and bring order once again and this will be the final ingathering, the very last time in the very last hours before the coming of Christ that will bring the LDS church completely out of darkness. Section 1 was only the beginning which was the milk. The meat belongs to firstborn Manasseh who was placed as last born temporarily, who is about to take back his firstborn role and this is WHY we see at 3 Nephi 21, that it is the Gentiles of Ephraim who will need to join the assembly of Israel ‘Manasseh in charge’ after he has been restored in Joseph’s mikveh! Manasseh will oversee another mikveh with his ‘greater things’ and all Gentiles of the LDS church will need a re-immersion to be numbered with Israel inorder to move from betrothal to full marriage consummation. The Book of Mormon is VERY clear about this truth. It is time to get VERY excited. Don’t let the doom and gloom of the apostasy in the LDS church, cause you to let go of the truths you’ve received so far, when we are at the most important and critical time in our history as a nation! YOU agreed to come here to be part of this work! You just may not realize that, due to a veil that has not been lifted completely. YOU had to be righteous in your pre mortal estate to be here in the milk to begin with. Don’t let the adversary knock you off your last days HOLY MISSION! :-)

    • I’m traveling and using Karen’s log in. This is Steve Davis. I’m congratulate the personal claims we all have read this past week. Many are called but few are chosen during the Millennium and is this so? Because they know not the Millennium because the Spirit of God will be in His fulness. The Prophet Joseph Smith knew everything, like the Prophet Lehi knew everything, and they only lived a normal life through example, learning the most through repentance because they had a veil (explained, Alma 40-42). They were foreordained. Dreams/Visions come to this “one” person (D&C 124:6-7) because that is the “law” over the 6,000 year reign of Lucifer. This “law” was taught solely by one who experienced a three day coma (like Saul, Alma the Younger, Lamoni) in the holy scriptures. Based on work for the dead, Alma the Younger taught his wayward son about “many lives” during the first 6,000 years of the reign of good and evil on this earth. What will it be like during the Millennium? Jesus Christ taught Peter about this period of time (Millennium). Only Joseph Smith knew about the City of Zion like taught by the Prophet Enoch. This city was shown to me during my 78 hour NDE in October, 1960.

      http://www.citiesofpeace.com

      A new heaven. The resurrected Jesus Christ taught the importance of the Millennium when He taught the 2,500 to be “re-baptized” as a requirement for the Millennium and His reign without “evil” to enter into the formula. Evil is exposed through the Internet. The false bishops, prophets/apostles (D&C 64, last revelation in the 1833 Book of Commandments)will be replaced based on the actions warned by the Lord to the “apostles” in D&C 112. I taught these warnings from 1960 to 1995, even as a BYU Bishop called by President Benson during his 1989 “pride” talk, as I taught them one on one with the modern day general authorities. Some heeded, many exercised their blood-oath and taught the power of Lucifer from within the teachings of the natural man (Mosiah 3:19). My sweetheart Karen, witnessed the attempted “theft by deception” action by the “Brethren” in 2001 as Zions Bancorporation and Boeing Aircraft announced their own “Air-Cargo Projecct”. Sister Hawkins is the key person who will repent from her false teachings against Karen. I had nothing to do with her new book. She accomplished it through her own personal experiences.

      http://www.originalbookofmormonrestored.com

      http://www.mormonstruth.org

      2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

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  91. tom vanderbuilt says:

    The Sister Hawkins character here is comical, whoever is posting using that name. ‘I come to warn those that will hear’ Sister, take a relaxant, realise that the Bible bears little resemblance to it’s original form which means that none of us really know what we’re talking about.

    The rest is an exercise in baseless rumour.

    Bloke who doesn’t believe in Mormon Church posts snippets of info, true or otherwise, designed to further his own point of view but won’t actually have the balls to use a major and credible media platform in order to do it.

    A lot of wasted time and words here. Not that it matters much. None of us ‘know’ in terms of tangible knowledge that the mormon church is true. None of us ‘know’ it’s false.

    Even Sandra Tanner changes her story and blames it on Bronchitis. Hahaaaaaaa, deary deary me.

    What else is there to discuss?

    • fredwanson says:

      Well I suppose we could discuss why you’re so arrogant, condescending, and insulting . . .

      However, usually the best thing to do with drive-by troll flamings is to ignore them.

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  93. @Robert Sinclair, you asked why we don’t ‘get’ your posts. Well, for a start, they’re pretty much illedgible since you don’t paragraph so in my case they don’t get read except for a line here and there – if that.

    Second, you seem to have the same problem that Steve Davis and Sister Hawkins have – you aappear to presume that we agree with and/or are interested your LDS-centric worldview and presuppositions when in fact we’re not. And our attempts to tell all you Soap Boxers that seem to fall on deaf ears.

    In the end it seems to me that all the Soap Box Preachers here are preaching at each other more than anyone else -hey man, if it makes you all happy go for it, we’ll leave you to yorselves to rail at and pronounce judgment on each other. Knock yourselves out!

    You asked – there it is.

    • Robert Sinclair says:

      Dear Fred,
      Thank you for your reply. I do not know how to paragraph as of yet thank you for letting me know something I should learn to do. If it appears I am railing, speaking bitterly and lifting myself up above others and pronouncing judgement upon them I am sorry for such as may be thought of my comments. My hope was to help not to hinder others in their search for truth. I spent many years trying to understand the scriptures that have been written and that are for all to read and see. I at one time had desires for more than one wife and wondered if it was O.K. for King David and Solomon and Joseph Smith and Brigam Young then it must be O.K. for me as well. And many other things I was taught and learned when I was young that caused me to wonder I did wish to find out for myself what had been written reguarding such. As I had begun to search I thought of whose council would be the greatest to seek out and I thought I would first learn of everything Jesus Christ had said to do and every way he said to be like and of everything he had said that we should know. So I studied his words over and over until I had read everything I could find written of his sayings. And I read the sayings of other prophets and wise men that have written to see what they have had to say.and I have made my comments from what I have read. You say you have not read all of what I have written and for this I am sorrowful. I do thank you for responding to me as I will learn how to paragraph if I can learn how to do it properly in the future. Thank you again for your response.
      Sincerely,
      Robert Sinclair

  94. Toronaga says:

    cuttingedge.org/articles/p294.htm

    Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were Freemasons.

    henrymakow.com/mormonism.html

    Joseph Smith was known, previous to his “revelation” as one who scryed to find treasure (that is, psychic looking at/into a stone or rock for divination purposes.)

    It was by “scrying” that he allegedly “translated” the Book of Mormon etc. Compare this with automatic writing, channeling or other similar occultic practices, which each also spawned pseudo-bibles, with followings of their own.

    atrueott.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/proof-that-the-book-of-mormon-is-pure-fiction-problems-with-the-book-of-ether/

    Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph’s mother, declared in her book that in the years following his very real brush with death, young Joseph would often mesmerize the entire family with his vivid tales and detailed descriptions of ancient peoples and their magnificent cities….

    At 12 years of age, the traumatized D.I.D. victim Joseph became the apprentice/constant companion of a man named Luman Walters. Sadly, Walters’ history is extremely dark. He was a favored student of the high-level Masonic hypnotist Anton Mesmer in Austria, and was eventually expelled from Europe for “wizardry and necromancy”. Walters’ name (L. Walters – America) appears as one of the “charter members” of an Austrian secret society called “The Fratris Lucis” (The Brotherhood of Lucifer.) Walters was trained and skilled in the use of mind-twisting entheogens such as Amanita Mascara mushrooms and Daitura – used for thousands of years by the “shamans” of various satanic mystery cults over the centuries in order to produce ‘sacred’ visions with the ‘God of the Earth’. There can be little doubt from analyzing the factual historical record, that Joseph Smith literally became the “Sorcerer’s Apprentice”. LDS Church Historian D. Michael Quinn in his seminal book: “Early Mormonism and the Magic World View” declares that Joseph and Walters’ became “inseparable constant companions”….

    Joseph Smith…was indeed clearly delusional and suffering from (as his wife Emma candidly defined it) a “diseased mind”.

    • John J. says:

      Joseph Smith hated the Freemasons. One of his spiritual wives was Lucinda Morgan, the widow of William Morgan, whose kidnapping and murder spawned the Anti-Masonic Party and movement. He infiltrated the craft and used it own symbolisms to expose how evil the elitism they promoted was. The Freemasons excommunicated him from their group and were the ones that murdered him. John C. Bennett fired the shot that killed him. William Law and Brigham Young were also devote Freemasons that belonged to the Nauvoo Lodge. Both participated in the first presentation of the Endowment Ceremony. William Law was asked to play the part of the character Lucifer and had to wear a masonic apron, which was a sign of his priesthood and power. This of course made Law very angry. Doesn’t seem that Joseph was the devote Freemason & Luciferian you claim!
      Bennett fell from power and was excommunicated from the church for adultery and seducing women. He owned and operated the local brothel and was caught in a homosexual act with Francis Higbee by Joseph Smith. Bennett and his lovers such as Nancy Rigdon and Sarah Pratt conspired against Joseph to try and hide their sins.
      The Book of Mormon was translated by use of the Urim and Thummim (two stones) not a seer stone placed in a top hat. The real treasure seekers were those that trying to steal the gold plates from Joseph. It was to his advantage for others to think he used other devices, to keep the Urim and Thummim and the plates from falling into the wrong hands. A mesmerizing or enchanting tale certainly does NOT mean they were in a trance state. Someone in a trance cannot tell you what transpired while they were in the trance, so how could Lucy Mack Smith give details of the account? Furthermore, the only details of cities in the Book of Mormon are their names and fortification for war. Where are all these elaborate details of these cities described to Lucy. Surely, Joseph would have included them if he had designs on hypnotizing the readers of the Book of Mormon.
      An anti-Mormon gossip can turn any saint into a murderer and charlatan by speculating on what they think is fact. Quinn, a homosexual himself could have sympathized with Bennett, in coming to some of his conclusions. Smith never made homosexuality an issue. He knew his son David, Olivery Cowdery, and Orson Pratt were of that sexual orientation. Quinn claims Eliza Snow lived with Joseph and Emma for six months but Emma never knew that Snow was one of his spiritual wives. Pretty stupid conclusion if you ask me! Recovering from a leg injury in Salem, Massachusetts doesn’t make one a witch or sorcerer. Anti-Mormons just let their imaginations run wild and search for anything that fits into their paradigm to justify judging the actions of others. “Judge not that ye be not judged”.

    • “Fratis Lucis” simply means “Brotherhood of Light”. The name “Lucifer” comes from “Lucis Ferrei” or “Bearer of Light”. The Hebrew word for Lucifer was Heyleyl, which means “Shining One” or “Bright One”; a reference to Venus. Jesus identifies Himself with Venus in the Book of Revelations: “I am the Bright and Morning Star”. The connection between Joseph Smith and Luman Walters is based upon hearsay only, no firm evidence. But, even if there were, what of it?

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  96. Great information. Lucky me I discovered your blog by accident (stumbleupon).
    I have saved it for later!

  97. cof says:

    Thank you, I have just been looking for information about this subject for ages and yours is the best I have came upon so far. However, what in regards to the conclusion? Are you certain about the supply?|What i don’t realize is in reality how you are no longer actually a lot more neatly-liked than you may be now. You’re very intelligent.

  98. Dan Knight says:

    So….if Hans Mattson is THE GA or one of them….Big deal….As an Area Authority he is no more than a glorified Stake Prez at best….in that case, who cares about what Mattson thinks or where or to what rag he preaches his rhetoric….if that is all Palmer has…so much for his integrity….
    IF, there is an actual 70 or Q 12/15, for hells sake name a name Palmer……or you have no more integrity than the National Enquirer or The Star…..put up or shut up….spew the info and save mankind…..right now, it is no more than “he said she said” and the best you have right now to come out publicly is a Glorified Swede Stake President that no one knows who in the hell he is nor cares……
    I am not a “Blind Follower” , but if Palmer nor anyone else has any more positive proof than three meetings and a hug from a man of integrity….Palmer and HIS followers is not any better than the Church and Leaders he is trying to save us all from.

    And don’t say that the “Leader” does not want to be outed for fear of retribution from the Big Boys in the Big White Building…sorry, that is no better than “an insider says” on a new Kim Kardashian Hollywood story scam….

    AGAIN! I am a simple man…
    .I question all things inside the Church and out…so Palmer, PUT UP OR SHUT UP and quit wasting our time..
    .Name The Names if they will not profess themselves.

    • Thank you for your thoughts on this. It clearly was not Hans Mattsson however, for he was a member of the 3rd Q of 70, whereas Grant Palmer was reporting on what transpired between himself, a returned Mission President, and a member of the 1st Q 70. Would knowledge of their identities serve any positive purpose at this point? Possibly so, but I feel that that is for the individuals themselves to judge. I fully respect Grant Palmer for not disclosing their identities without their explicit permission. Nor has he told me their identities. His priority is to support the men rather than to satisfy our natural curiosity. So, it comes down at this point to whether we accept Grant Palmer’s account as truthful or not. Everything I know about him leads me to place full trust in what he has said.

  99. Dan Knight says:

    Yes it matters”Who”. That is a no brainer.
    Knowledge of the ” Who” makes it a fact not a fantasy as Mr Palmer claims the Fantasy Church to be.
    Otherwise Palmer vs the Fanatic Momo debate is like a couple of little school girls fighting back and forth on the playground.
    Natural curiosity and be damned….fact is fact…indisputable, not faith which can be reasonably questioned.
    The fact is Grant Palmer is making accusations, I am in no means a blind follower of The Church….in fact I question EVERYTHING with boldness…out of Monson’s mouth or Palmers…..
    The way Mr Palmer is presenting his story, is no different that the sensationalism that is used in the Supermarket Tabloids and Hollywood insider media shows…

    So, a few questions perhaps can be answered….as in your most basic journalism, media or writing classes and/or assignments….Who, What, When, Where, Why, How?

    Who? GOK as my dad used to say….GOD ONLY KNOWS and Mr. Palmer

    What? LDS Church nothing more than a scheme of foolish money hungry good doers in the world and an unknown MAJOR INSIDER is longing to come clean…..hmmmmm much like Snowden.

    When? GOK and Mr Palmer…..perhaps after a few more books and seminar tickets are sold.

    Where? GOK and Mr Palmer, where this fantastic, world and mankind changing announcement will be made…It has been rumored in some threads to be Octember MoMo World General Conference 2013…

    Why? To save all mankind from the evil millionaires keeping The Man, The Myth, the Miracle alive.

    How? GOK and Mr. Palmer….how the announcement will be made, in what spectacular fashion it will be made, where it will be made, with what proof it will be made…

    Unless Mr. Palmer comes forward with visible tangible proof he is asking mankind to believe in him in just the same way the Big Bad Boys in the Big White Building and the Suited Assassins at Kirton and McConkie are asking all the MoMos to believe in the Big Scam….ONLY BY FAITH….And a good Carney Side Show!

    Therefore Mr. Palmer’s Great Poker Hand he holds close to his chest is merely a “Push” to what the House is holding in theirs. That makes it a non story, non issue.

    No Names = no more than Seinfeld’s Yada, Yada, Yada episode…..

    BTW. Thank you for your straightforwardness and openness in the release of information in this particular forum of as much as you personally know.

    • Good journalism no longer exists now that only a few huge corporations own it all along with untrained bloggers sitting at home in their PJs surfing the web and re-tweeting rumors. Grant has continued one vestige of what good journalists did back in the day…when a source wants to be anonymous you respect their right to be so. That is the only way whistle blowers feel safe in releasing information they otherwise would be too fearful to do. When and if the time is right, Grant’s source will come forward and the Danites of happy valley will be waiting with a sharp knife to help him atone for his transgression in a quite place.

  100. Kerekere says:

    All a GA would have to do is read Grant’s book, “An insider’s views of Mormon origins” and he would seriously doubt the truthfulnes of the church. And there is so much more. I won’t leave the church because of my wife. I would be afraid to even discuss this with her. She would choose the church over me. No lie.

  101. Michael McAlpine says:

    This is a little shocking. On the one hand it is hard to believe that people would sell themselves so cheaply and go on to deliberately and actively participate in a shame. The very idea that one would do so with the idea that it is better to proceed on that basis than to inform and advise the membership. To rather deceive than provide leadership. It is truly disgusting. What’s worse, is they are so successful at it. My own wife and children can’t even think of me in any other way than deluded and misinformed, without credibility or deserving of consideration on Mormon matters.

    • Susie says:

      I have a friend who was married to a stake patriarch. She had been raised Catholic “where all the family are welcome even the drunks and adulterers because all are loved” and yet in the home of her Mormom marriage, her husband will not allow their daughter and her live-in boyfriend to be at the dinner table on Sunday because of “appearances”. As my friend said in anguish, “The Mormon Church puts families together on paper and destroys them in real life.” She stays mormon and married because it is so hard when you are older to make major changes.
      Michael, I am watching my son, (who served a mission and came home and said, “these people lie” and discarded his mormonism), struggle with a nazi-mormon wife who “loves family so much” she must go to the temple, do everything she can to be at church every moment there is opportunity, never watch a movie or participate in family gatherings because she is “building family” in some other fantasy way where she isn’t disturbed by the voice of non-Mormon family members who go to other churches. My son is such a good man, providing for her and yet she actively teaches their young children that he is a “bad family man” because he has rejected mormonism. That’s what mormonism does for familiies. That is why so many are leaving the mormon church. The mormon church should be ashamed that it allows its fraud and cover-ups to be at the foundation of so much destruction in struggling families. My son is patient (though highly disappointed and depressed at times) and we interact with his children knowing in time they will have eyes to see. If his wife never opens her eyes, she will be the loser in the long run. That is what following mormonism will do for her in the long run. The mormon church leaders, even small time local leaders, will one day be held accountable for such destruction in the lives of people who honestly want to serve Jesus Christ…….Jesus Christ of the New Testament, not the fabricated mormon Jesus of the Doctrine and Covenants.

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  103. ammon17 says:

    I am searching for any families or organizations who have left the church over the issue of abortion liberalization? Furthermore, if you can think of anyone who might know of such people, please send me their contact info.

  104. Dave says:

    Grant Palmer tells an interesting story; too bad it’s not true. For starters, the GA he claims to have met with monthly can’t exist. There are no General Authorities currently serving who were in the First Quorum of Seventy before 1989. Even if you look at members of the Second Quorum who are now in the presidency, you’ve got:

    John B Dickson, sustained 06 Jun 1992
    Carlos H Amado, sustained 01 Apr 1989
    Claudio R. M. Costa, sustained 02 Apr 1994

    Dickson has been in West Africa; Amado in Central America; Costa in Brazil. None are available to meet with Palmer, not to mention visit his house in SLC monthly.

    I’m not going to rehash the other elements of his story that have been debunked, but I’ll just leave this here: http://www.fairblog.org/2013/04/13/does-grant-palmer-really-claim-to-have-rescued-a-mormon-general-authority-away-from-the-lds-faith/

    I suspect that the purpose of this “whistleblower” memo was to drum up publicity for his book. If you’re disaffected from the church, you’d eventually come across a viral story like this, and then click through to buy the book.

  105. Riverwatch says:

    I am so glad to be through with Mormonism. It is a fraudulent religion with an arrogant approach to humanity.
    Of course “the twelve” all know it is fraudulent. How could they not know. They are not stupid and uninformed men. They are just silent on the truth, whether because they think the members “need” a crutch to cling to or whether because they have been “bought off”.
    I am more inclined to think their reasons for being silent on the truth is for multiple economic reasons as well as lack of the MAJOR courage it would take them to be honest.

    “The twelve” should……..and we who have summoned the courage to speak out and leave this fradulent church must…….. affirm to the world that the collapse of Mormonism would NOT leave the world devoid of spiritual guidance. God lives! Christ is my King.

  106. Good to be on this site. I am interested in the definition of viral in the case of this story.
    Are we talking 10 000 or 100 000 hits ? Why is everything quiet now ? Has the GA decided to leave it at that ? And what about Uchtdorf comments in October ? Is there a Mormon conspiracy of wide spread duplicity among the top 15 ? Who wields the most power when Monson gets too old ?

  107. Scott says:

    This thread was entertaining aside from “sister rant” and the others creating their off topic rants about doctrine that was made up by biblical people, fictional people (book of Mormon) and megalomaniac people in the 19th century. It’s like having an argument about which of the Salem Witches cursed you across time and space and gave you the flu rather than accepting the germ theory of disease. It’s also an illustration of the lengths people will go to to hang on to some small part of the crazy beliefs they once had, and those beliefs have been thoroughly imprinted on their brains. Rather than completely reevaluating, they’ll change their beliefs slightly to think some portion of those beliefs was wrong and hang on tenaciously to some other beliefs that are equally crazy. I find it sad to see such effort wasted to extend something that was always a fantasy.

    As far as the general authority, it doesn’t surprise me that some percentage of people will come to a realization that the church is essentially a lie, even after being involved for many years. However I suspect he’s overstating the case of how other high up people would characterize their cvs own beliefs. It may be that a great many people at the upper level of the church know that historical claims made by the church are untrue, but it doesn’t automatically follow that they’ve rejected everything about the church. They may still work hard in order to believe many other things. This general authority is still in denial about the lengths to which many people will go in pursuit of maintaining their identity and beliefs and the degree of self deception that can be possible, even against contrary evidence, even if that evidence is accepted. It may ultimately speak well that he’s able to question his entire set of beliefs in that area, but he underestimates the ability of other people to ignore and compartmentalize their beliefs. Because he’s changing his beliefs because of new evidence doesn’t suggest that other people are doing the same. Religion is remarkably durable even in the face of contrary evidence.

    I also doubt that even a fairly big number of high up people inside the church leaving would have an ultimately destructive effect on the church. Look at the molestation and sex scandals in the Catholic church and how little they’ve done towards getting “true believer” Catholics to leave. Sure, obvious problems may cause some people to reevaluate, but a large number will ignore problems and believe what they want since religion isn’t an evidence-based belief for most people and many people are just not able to understood experience other views of the world.

    Still I’m sure it would be interesting to see these conversations with the anonymous ga.

    I came to the conclusion that the Mormon church was complete bunk years ago based on a different kind reasoning and evidence that was very convincing to me. Though, I was also aware of historical problems. Still it took me 5 or 10 years or to give up most of the internalized destructive and false beliefs instilled in me by the church. I wish the general authority and others trying to escape the best of luck. It’s not an easy process and not all the church values are bad, but it’s a difficult thing to work though after being part of the lds church for a long time.

    • Riverwatch says:

      Deceptiion is spiritually damaging, so I do not defend the mormon church in any way, it is easy to wrap “good values” around bad ones and “get away with it”. I hope you xo not defend the Mormon church in any way. It is built upon shifting sands and is harmful to its adherents. I hope you will visit my blog which addresses the importance of being clear.

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        The Mormon leaders have forsaken the law given of Christ unto them of giving Covenants and Deeds that cannot be broken for inheritances for every member especially the poor among them.

        This was and is the law of God unto his people to divide the lands for inheritances for all by covenants and deeds that cannot be broken.

        Keep this commandment of God and prosper establishing peace on earth and goodwill one towards another, bringing forth the Zion of God of all thing’s common everyone dealing justly one with another.

        These laws are all manifested in the book called the ” One Stick ” given unto Ephraim as is recorded in the book of Ezekiel 37 as how the nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all finally can be established.

      • chosha says:

        And Hobbits should show hospitality. And if a jedi uses the force with hate it will turn him to the dark side. Laws exist in works of fiction. We don’t have to treat them like they’re real.

      • Robert Sinclair says:

        For living the dream even the vision given of a better world wherein you can have great joy and happiness. :)

      • Riverwatch says:

        So you think the Mormon scripture is true, only not adhered to? Jesus said, “The poor you have with you always.”

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